Hurricane characterisitcs

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by kingwinner, Nov 12, 2005.

  1. valich Registered Senior Member

  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. Arch_Rival Registered Senior Member

    Hurricanes can be modelled using a conventional vortex. But because a vortex has infinite velocity at its core pure vortices do not exist. Hence the center of a hurricane is modelled as a rigid body in rotation, surrounded by a conventional vortex. This model represents what is happening really. The rigid body is the central column of a hurricane.

    For a rigid body in rotation the velocity at the center is zero. Hence at the eye of the hurricane it is calm. It has low pressure and pulling air toward it, therefore the surrounding air is in rotation, similar to planets revolving round the sun but not falling into it.

    As for the humid conditions, i suppose the low pressure air cannot hold much water, not allowing water to evaporate. So you would feel humid in the eye.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    >> similar to planets revolving round the sun but not falling into it

    please explain, how the vortex remains stable, Arch Rival

    So called "gravity" keeps planets in place..... what keeps hurricanes together ???
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. valich Registered Senior Member

    What I posted above was the circulation patterns in a tornado: different from a hurricane. I posted the circulation patterns in a huricane on page 3 and will repost them here. The eye of a hurricane is calm, but there is still a downward wind cycle caused by the necessary condensation downdraft of the uplifted warm air. The circulation itself is due to the Earth's Coriolis effect which is caused by the Earth's spin. A hurricane can only develop 10 degrees away from equatorial regions of warm water that tend to rise and then circulate (but not on or nearer than this to the equator). As the warm humid currents rise to the top, there has to be a downdraft for recirculation. If you drain a bathtub or a sink you'll see a similar calm eye in the center. This is due to the outward centrifugal forces acting on the spin:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  8. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    >> drain a bathtub ........outward centrifugal forces >>>>>

    Take the actual container away and spinning water goes everywhere but inwards .

    So what is the container strong enough to hold a tornado or hurricane in, when anything spinning (and not tied down) in classical mechanics, will fly apart.

    All established theories fail totally to explain how ??billions of tons or water in a hurricane just spin in a "tight" vortex.....

    Valich, ....descriptions of what goes here or there is not enough to explain the atmospheric vortices... note proposed mechanisms must address the really hard questions....

    Please explain how a hurricane/tornado maintains its integrity.

    I have stated a mechanism (that applies to all rotation, planets etc) where the vortex produces its own radial gravity........ derived from electrodynamic principles.

    >> The circulation itself is due to the Earth's Coriolis effect which is caused by the Earth's spin >>

    This is hand waving, the Coriolis effect is very very weak,,,,, and saying Earth's spin twice does not help.... all BS, IMO

    The Coriolis effect is equally not understood, just a coined name that hides so much.
  9. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    >> The electrified storms result when Earth’s upper atmosphere is energized by clouds of charged particles kicked up by solar storms.

    Researchers at NASA and the National Science Foundation found a way to combine ground and space observations to create an unprecedented view of the upper-atmosphere disturbances. They resemble weather cold fronts down on the surface, the researchers said.

    The near-space storms develop when hot gas called plasma builds up in Earth’s ionosphere. The plasma impedes low- and high-frequency radio communications and delays Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation signals.

    "People knew there was a space storm that must have disrupted their system, but they had no idea why," said Tony Mannucci of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "Now we know it's not just chaos; there is cause and effect. We are beginning to put together the full picture, which will ultimately let us predict space storms."

    The researchers have linked movement of the plumes to processes that release plasma into space.

    "Discovering this link is like discovering the movement of cold fronts is responsible for sudden thunderstorms," said Jerry Goldstein of the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio.

    The plumes cause GPS position errors by time delaying the propagation of GPS signals. And the turbulence they generate causes receivers to lose the signal through an effect known as scintillation, similar to the apparent twinkling of stars caused by atmospheric turbulence.

    The research team actually used the GPS disturbances to build their new model of how the storms behave.

    As plasma from a solar storm blows by, it generates an electric field that is transmitted to Earth’s natural plasmasphere and ionosphere. This electric field then propels plasma from the ionosphere and the plasmasphere out into space.

    "We also know these disturbances occur most often between noon and dusk, and between mid to high latitudes, due to the global structure of the electric and magnetic fields during space storms," said Anthea Coster of the Haystack Observatory. "Ground and space based, and in situ measurements are allowing scientists to understand the ionosphere-thermosphere-magnetosphere as a coupled system.">>
  10. URI IMU Registered Senior Member


    >> The current series of busy seasons is part of a long-term cycle that climatologists had predicted years ago. The Atlantic is in its 11th year of heightened activity. It is expected to "continue for the the next decade or perhaps longer," said officials with the National Weather Service last week.

    The cycle typically involves two or more decades of lull and two or more decades of high activity.

    "After 22 years of making these forecasts, it is appropriate that I step back and have Phil Klotzbach assume the primary responsibility for our project’s seasonal, monthly and landfall probability forecasts," Gray said. >>>

    22 years, 11 years....... Sun spot cycles.......
  11. valich Registered Senior Member

    Wher do you get the idea that a vortex has an infinite velocity? Tornados and cyclones both have a vortex: maximum sustained speed of 300 mph.

    Have you bothered to read all our definitive posts above about the formations of tornados and cyclones. There are no unanswered questions:

    ""A cyclone [or a hurricane as they are called in the Atlantic] is a large, rotating system of clouds, wind and thunderstorm activity. Its primary energy source is the release of the heat of condensation from water vapor condensing at high altitudes, the heat ultimately derived from the sun. Therefore, a tropical cyclone can be thought of as a giant vertical heat engine supported by mechanics driven by physical forces such as the orbital revolution and gravity of the Earth. Continued condensation leads to higher winds, continued evaporation, and continued condensation, feeding back into itself. This gives rise to factors that give the system enough energy to be self-sufficient and cause a positive feedback loop where it can draw more energy as long as the source of heat, warm water, remains. Factors such as a continued lack of equilibrium in air mass distribution would also give supporting energy to the cyclone. The orbital revolution of the Earth causes the system to spin, giving it a cyclone characteristic and affecting the trajectory of the storm.

    The factors to form a tropical cyclone include a pre-existing weather disturbance, warm tropical oceans, moisture, and relatively light winds aloft. If the right conditions persist and allow it to create a feedback loop by maximizing the energy intake possible, for example, such as high winds to increase the rate of evaporation, they can combine to produce the violent winds, incredible waves, torrential rains, and floods associated with this phenomenon.

    Condensation as a driving force is what primarily distinguishes tropical cyclones from other meteorological phenomena, and because this is strongest in a tropical climate, this defines the initial domain of the tropical cyclone. By contrast, mid-latitude cyclones, for example, draw their energy mostly from pre-existing horizontal temperature gradients in the atmosphere. In order to continue to drive its heat engine, a tropical cyclone must remain over warm water, which provides the atmospheric moisture needed. The condensation of this moisture is driven by the high winds and reduced atmospheric pressure in the storm, resulting in a sustaining cycle. As a result, when a tropical cyclone passes over land, its strength diminishes rapidly."
  12. Arch_Rival Registered Senior Member

    We are on different tracks. You are explaining it quantitatively, i am talking about mathematical modelling, which seems to correspond quite well with observations. You are concerned with how a tornato/hurricane forms, i'm concerned with using the model to explain the questions in the first post.

    A vortex has infinite velocity at its core. But this is unrealistic, so a rigid body takes the core while outside a vortex is dominant. This avoids infinite velocity at the core. The entire structure is thus made up of a rigid core, a conventional vortex and maybe a sink.

    i wish i could post up some jpegs, unfortunately there's an error everytime i try to do so. Not only jpegs, or any other files for that matter.
  13. valich Registered Senior Member

    Post a .jpg like this:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Right click on the picture, then click on "Properties," then copy the entire URL Address. Put the entire address between the notations

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  14. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    >> A vortex has infinite velocity at its core. But this is unrealistic, >>

    not infinite, r can never be less than 1 unit. But in reality..
    indeed that is correct,
    Just as a magnet must have a dipole of real length.....
    The vortex as with the planets has to have a core ""surface area" and a volume..... the validity of any math analysis must not go less than these parameters (limits).

    One exception is that, a centre of point action can be assumed when dealing with the interaction of masses separated by a great distance, realising that the above condition still holds.
  15. Arch_Rival Registered Senior Member

    Unfortunately i haven't got a place to upload the images to. Uploading the images to sciforums results in errors: XXX1.JPG: Not a valid image
  16. valich Registered Senior Member

    As I keep asking, cite your source(s) please. A tornado or cyclone consist of a vortex: they do NOT have an infinite velocity at their core - never had and never will.
  17. doodah Registered Senior Member

  18. Arch_Rival Registered Senior Member

    Thanks, i got myself an account

    These images are from a cfd simulation. A semi-infinite diamond shaped airfoil is placed at an angle of attack to produce a vortex at the trailing edge.

    Below is a streamline plot. The vortex can be seen.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    This is a view of the vortex from the back. The gray line is on Plane 1 and passes through the eye of the vortex. Note the outer regions are yellow (high pressure) while the core is blue (low pressure).

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    This is a y-velocity plot on the gray line.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    The center portion is linear, indicating this rotates as a rigid body. Outside, the velocity decreases proportional to 1/r, which is a conventional mathematical discription of a vortex.

    Thus, the mathematical description of a vortex is made up of a rigid rotational core and a conventional vortex. The problem of an infinite velocity caused by a conventional vortex at the core is avoided by placing a rigid body there, and this agrees well with observations.
  19. URI IMU Registered Senior Member


    >> When moving fluid comes into contact with a submerged object, it forks in two and flows around the object. But if the fluid is moving in a circle and rotating, something strange happens: the submerged object creates a "cylinder" of still water that extends from the top to the bottom of the fluid, well above the physical height of the object.

    This "virtual" cylinder is known as a Taylor column and can disrupt the flow of water just as if it were a physical column.

    The atmosphere has its own rivers of air, which scientists treat as a fluid moving in a circular motion due to the rotation of the Earth. >>>

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    The vortex cylinder in Tornadeos and hurricanes are not like this at all, the actual cylinder has an anistrophy to its spin......

    From my reading the above is unlikely, because secondary vortexes would also be formed... these are well studies

    see Jupiters red spot.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2005
  20. valich Registered Senior Member

    The vortex in tornadoes is due to to the Coriolis effect and started by cross winds. Some readers and posters on this thread have wanted to equate "plasma" vortexes with thermal air current vortexes, which you simply cannot due. When I hear the word "fluid" applied to vortexes, I'm immediately thinking "plasma."

    And now the Taylor Column. It was just a laboratory experiment named after the experiment: "a phenomenon known as a Taylor column causes cold water to be trapped above the sea mount as it is washed by currents coming in" during freezing conditions.

    "Taylor Column: The exhibit consists of a six foot high glass cylinder within which is a one inch thick layer of water containing an agent for visualizing fluid flow. Within this cylinder is a motorized rotating cylinder. As you spin the inner cylinder, fluid flows in complex, self-organizing patterns. The exhibit demonstrates a phenomenon known as "Taylor Instability.""

    "Taylor's experiment consisted of a rotating cylindrical tank of fluid. The tank is rotated at a high frequency. Once the fluid settles into solid-body rotation, a small cylinder (a fraction of the height of the fluid) is dragged along the bottom of the tank. Dye is then injected into the fluid. In a non-rotating tank, the dye is free to move anywhere in the fluid. However, in the rotating tank, the dye would be diverted from passing over the cylinder as if the cylinder's height were extended in a column from the top to the bottom of the fluid (see Figure 3) . This `imaginary' cylinder is known as a Taylor column."

    And then the post above ends with: "see Jupiter's red spots." We are talking about an entirely different "plasma" atmosphere!

    "Jupiter is composed of a relatively small rocky core, surrounded by metallic hydrogen, surrounded by liquid hydrogen, which is surrounded by gaseous hydrogen. There is no clear boundary or surface between these different phases of hydrogen; the conditions blend smoothly from gas to liquid as one descends."

    Therefore, any cyclical cylinder affects on Jupiter are due to plasma activities: there's a big difference! Please stop posting these plasma cylinder diagrams that have nothing at all to do with cyclones activities here on Earth. Thank you.
  21. valich Registered Senior Member

    For those of you who have been following this forum, I stated that I had sent out numerous emails to scores of reputable agencies and scientific researchers currently involved in the field of tornado and cyclone formation. I just received another reply back from the NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory and am forwarding it here:


    As far as scientists understand, tornadoes are formed and sustained by a purely thermodynamic process. As a result, their research efforts are towards that end. They have spent a lot of time modeling the formation of a tornado and measuring many parameters in and around a tornado when it is forming and going through its life cycle. They have not seen any evidence to support magnetism or electricity playing a role

    You may have read about a technique called "the Weller Method" of tornado detection. The idea was to be able to use your TV as a lightning detector to detect the radio waves emitted by a lightning flash, with the assumption that tornadic thunderstorms were very active lightning producers. But, not all tornadic storms produce large amounts of lightning. And, TV's are all different and have different sensitivities, and some are even made to filter out lightning signals. Plus, if you are connected to cable, it won't work. The method was found to be completely unreliable and it has mostly been abandoned.

    Thank you for your interest!

    NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory
  22. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    >> TV's are all different and have different sensitivities, ........... The method was found to be completely unreliable and it has mostly been abandoned. >>

    but the principle of static discharge was well founded.

    >>Please stop posting these..... >>>

    Why do you wish to censure debate, Valich ?

    AS long as readers understand that the discussion re vortexes is theoretical and in some instances speculative.....

    It is admitted in the established literature that the understanding of the formation and maintenance of Tornedoes and Hurricanes is not entirely clear. What is the harm in allowing forum members to engage in knowledgeable discussions.

    Each point brings new knowledge to the table, a detailed discussion of pros and cons is educational not only to all those involved, but to all who read this forum. Maybe new insights will be gained, maybe all we will do is learn more...

    Respect and discussion of ideas and mechanisms is all that is required to investigate Hurricanes and Tornadeos, IMO.
  23. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    I have some accumulated links at my website

    especially the double helix formed over a silently discharging Tesla coil.

    All electromagnetic vortices are of a double helix interaction.

    If you wish to specifically discuss some points then open a thread.

Share This Page