Well, you're leaving out some major components. A hurricane is primarily a heat-driven storm. I think we've already pretty well discussed how it's fueled by warm, moist air rising from the warm surface of the water. All that moisture is being rapidly whipped around which, just as in a standard thunderstorm, strips electrons from the water molecules and builds up a tremendous electrical field. So upon striking land, which disrupts the form (shape) of the hurricane as it passes over irregularities on the surface, it can easily break into small, twisting vortexes and the necessary electrical energy is already present.
Yeah, I agree I left out a lot. But are you saying that a hurricane also has a similar electric field as that of a tornado? I mean, I've never heard of thunderbolts and lightning coming out of a hurricane like that in a tornado storm, or am I wrong?
Yes, they produce a LOT of thunder and lightning. But because of the strong winds, people seldom notice lightning when large objects are flying around and you can't even stand up. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The Fujita scale has a problem because people estimate wind speeds from damage so it's very subjective. How about the Saffir-Simpson scale? Is there anything or problems that make it imperfect?
>> Or why doesn't a hurricane turn into a tornado when it hits land? Because in a hurricane it is surrounded by a diamagnetic field. >> are produced by gravitational and centrifugal force (the Corriolis effect?)? >>> This is too simplistic.... IMO basically "gravity" and centrifugal force are inappropriate terms I prefer geomagnetic field, and electric field (E due to motion in the B field.), orthogonally opposed..... the result of local interation is spin. The 'spin' is an eddy.
You can have Tornadoes without water I think Tornadoes exist on Mars. You can't have Hurricanes without a diamagnetic ring... water on Earth most probably SO2 on Jupiter. A gravity (resultant) is spiral. Just conjecture drawn from theory.
Kingwinner, in case you are still following this thread, just beware that it has gone off into the deep end. There is no theory here. Just conjecture on top of conjecture on top of conjecture.
Oh, I see - or rather, that's why I don't see, right? Thanks. Off the deep end. Here we go. Then let's clarify what exactly is the difference between a tornado and a hurricane (other than how they are formed - on land, on sea, respectively). Or is a hurricane just an overgrown tornado on water? They both require a central low pressure system with warm convection currents and an electrodynamic spin gravity with "gravity force (to center of ellipsoid) and centrifugal force (perpendicular to axis of rotation). These two forces combine to form an inward force perpendicular to the surface of the Earth." Hurricanes (or cyclones) are initially produced because of the Coriolos Effect or Corriolis acceleration - this is the centrifugal force that influences the upward rising underlying warm currents of the ocean. But tornadoes are produced when cool air overrides a layer of warm air, forcing the warm air to rise rapidly and then spin. Where does a tornado's spin come from? And now enter a diamagnetic ring? Do they both have this? A diamagnetic field, or "geomagnetic field, and electric field (E due to motion in the B field)"? And what is a "B field"? What is it and where does it come from?
On pondering, check this one out: "Most tornadoes rotate cyclonically, which is counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise south of the equator. Anticyclonic tornadoes (clockwise-spinning in the northern hemisphere) have been observed, however usually in the form of waterspouts, non-supercell land tornadoes, or anticyclonic whirls around the rim of a supercell's mesocyclone. There have been several documented cases of cyclonic and anticyclonic tornadoes under the same thunderstorm at the same time. [There are also] multivortex (multiple-vortex) tornadoes thsat contain two or more small, intense subvortices orbiting the center of the larger tornado circulation." http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/#The Basics Whew! Starting to get too hot to handle!
>> Where does a tornado's spin come from? most probably an electical distortion high up... ionosphere or higher see fair weather field.. The world seems to be experiencing a number of 'twisting storms' Maybe the potential of the Earth's static electric field is increasing ??? >> And now enter a diamagnetic ring? Do they both have this? >>> no, only in the cloud ring in a hurricane (made of diamagnetic water) >> A diamagnetic field, or "geomagnetic field, >> no, diamagnetism is anti-magnetism.... a geomagnetic field is a massive magnetic field >>and electric field (E due to motion in the B field)"? And what is a "B field"? What is it >> B field is geomagnetic, E field is its induction counter due to motion. >> where does it come from?>> all matter ( cosmic matter) has a static electric and geomagnetic moment. These two fields are orthogonal and in harmonic equilibrium. Valich, my post information is drawn from personal research. >> There is no theory here. oh indeed there is sound theory... it is called Electrodynamic Spin Gravity Theory (ESGT) but I like Electro-Spin Gravity, not so formal
Thanks! But I'm still not very clear on what a diamagnetic ring is? Or what a B field and E field (Okay, E Field is electric field, but "E field is its induction counter due to motion"???" I'm lost there: "Historically B was called the magnetic flux density, magnetic induction, or magnetic field strength. H was called the magnetic field (or magnetic field intensity), and this terminology is still often used to distinguish the two in the context of magnetic materials (non-trivial permeability μ). Otherwise, however, this distinction is often ignored, and both symbols are frequently referred to as the magnetic field. (Some authors call H the auxiliary field, instead.) In linear materials, such as air or free space, the two quantities are linearly related." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-field I don't follow this? And then they also state: "The concept of electromagnetic propulsion is no simpler than in a simple coilgun: a (preferably soft) iron core is inserted into a coil. When a diamagnetic metallic torus is placed around the core, because it cannot be magnetized, its atoms become agitated, current is produced in it (thereby producing a magnetic field), and the electromagnet produces an opposing field (in accordance with Lenz's law and the law of the conservation of energy). Because of this opposition, the ring is fired off of the electromagnet, propelling it away. (Note that if the torus (or ring) is prevented from escaping the magnetic field, due to the induced current, it will become very hot. This is how induction cookers work.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_propulsion" So I'm thinking that a diamagnetic ring is the same thing as a diamagnetic metallic torus? And a toroid is a "a surface generated by a closed curve rotating about, but not intersecting or containing, an axis in its own plane." Okay, I can understand that. But how that explains cylone, hurricane, or tornado rotation is way beyond me. My guess is that we just don't know yet? I don't think a tornado is due to electric distortions higher up. I have observed water spouts twirling off the shores of Lake Erie 10 to 50 feet high that look exactly like miniature tornadoes. Wikipedea states "Exactly how tornadoes form is complex and not fully understood" and provide little additional info. However under "funnel clouds" it states that funnel clouds are directly related to tornadoes: "The mixing of cooler air in the lower troposphere with air flowing in an opposing direction from the middle troposphere causes the rotation on a horizontal axis, which when deflected vertically by atmospheric conditions can form into a funnel cloud." I find this explanation inadequate too because the middle troposhere has differing wind directions.
>> what a diamagnetic ring is? In a hurricane it is the ring of water which is a very substantial diamagnetic ring, many millions of tons. B field I call the magnetic field/flux density.... it is the density of the field at r H, I would call the magnetic field strength, which is length of dipole dependent, a parameter of the body itself. Earth's field B is puny here as compared to the world's strongest magnets, however the H of the Earth makes the world's strongest magnets but toys. >> a diamagnetic ring is the same thing as a diamagnetic metallic torus? yes In the article.... Some metals are diamagnetic, eg mercury, bismith, gold so it could be that the ring is made of one of these metals. Some non metals are as well, water, oxygen, people.
In the article, it seems like a diamagnetic force is only applicable to certain metals, not hurricanes and tornadoes. And as you say, "some metals are diamagnetic..." ("dia-" means "across" or "through"). It doesn't seem like this is what would cause cyclones to spin with water. My guess is that the spin starts from an angular twist in wind direction, within a low pressure area, and then this circular motion is sustained due to the Coriolis effect which causes clockwise rotation above the equator and counterclockwise below it. However, in support of a geomagnetic effect theory, check out the diagram halfway down the page on the article describing magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) - looks just like a tornado. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics But they initial define MHD as "a discipline which studies the dynamics of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water." What about fresh water? Is salt water more electrically conductive to electricity than fresh water? Tonadoes (freshwater) vs. hurricanes (salt water): yet they both spin. But then read the first content paragraph "Ideal MHD." This seems to be a possible explanation. Once a hydrolic spin is initiated, it might sustain itself through magnetic divided field lines. Centrifugal force would act outward perpendicular to the spin, which would tend to break it up, but the produced electromagnetic field - along with both the Coriolis effect and hydrogen bond attractions - would tend to hold the spin together? Pure speculation here.
The Coriolis effect: "As the wind blows from all sides to fill an area of low pressure, the Coriolis effect therefore creates rotation around the low pressure system. The winds around areas of low pressure circulate counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere, while in the Southern Hemisphere this circulation is clockwise." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! yes gravity is a spiral structure. See Poynting power vector... this is set up around all independent cosmic matter, but spun from afar... differential field spin. Of course differential field spin will cause tertiaries of Earth... basically tornadeos of some strength, however supply the diamagnetic ring of water, and the spin can be greately expanded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics >> the electric current sheets that separate different magnetic domains >> The E vectors (current sheets) and B vectors are orthogonal..... the resultant is orthogonal to the BXE plane (call this 'gravity'). >> Hannes Alfvén, ..., wrote in their book Cosmical Electrodynamics >> yes, profound insight..... the Schumann resonance shows the electrodynamic spin drift of Earth's field, about 8 cycles/sec (7.91 kms/sec) These principles are the basis of my "Electro Spin Gravity Theory" (push gravity) I do not understand everything, and I am pleased to get some help. Most (all) people so far have cried sick lad!!!! Thanks for showing intelligent interest. >> circular motion is sustained due to the Coriolis effect >>> there is far more energy in the system than can be explained by a 'coriolis effect' as it is envisaged.
It's not decisive though whether or not magnetohydrodynamics applies to tornadoes and/or to all cyclones. The simple short-lived water spouts that I observe off the shores of Lake Erie certainly don't have much energy, or are these part of what you are referring to as "tertiaries of Earth"? And as you can see from the MHD diagram, there seems to be three different spin cycles involved. I know meteorologists have done experiment(s) where they circulated metal chips inside a tornado and measured the circulation patterns. Perhaps if we could locate the results of these experiment(s) they might indicate a similar pattern to make the theory more credible. Also, there must be some information out there where they have measured changes in EM field as a tornado crossed over. All they would have to do is throw a gaussmeter out in front of it to measure the field strength (magnetic flux density is measured in teslas: still, 1 milligauss(mG) = 100nanoTessla(nT). Same difference. Poynting vector (cross product of the electric field and the magnetic field) measured as the power flux density: Poynting vector S = E x H, where E is the electric field strength measured in volts/metre, and H is the magnetic field strength measured in amps/metre. We need a study with gauss data to establish empirical proof.
There has to be a study about this somewhere. I mean this would be so easy to do. Look how large a hurricane is. NASA or the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) could just fly over a hurricane and drop gaussmeters at intermittent distances across and relay the reading. They could do this both at the top, middle, and ground level, monitoring the results.
Summary of the results of the Verification of the Origins of Rotation in Tornado Experiment (VORTEX) conducted in 1994-95, managed by Erik Rasmussen, National Severe Storms Laboratory (NSSL): “The basic atmospheric physics that gives rise to tornadoes is well understood by now. Thunderstorms usually contain updrafts, large rising swells of warm, moist air. As the updraft moves, it rotates; if the rotation grows sufficiently intense, the storm can evolve into a tornado or funnel cloud (a tornado whose bottom does not touch the ground). Supercomputer simulations depict this process quite dramatically. Most tornadoes form within an especially intense weather system known as a supercell. Supercell thunderstorms occur when the warm updraft punches through an overlying, stable layer and continues upward into a zone of cool, dry air. The resulting instabilities produce powerful vortex motions, the lifeblood of tornadoes (a pair of computer-generated images depicts the difference between supercell and non-supercell storms). Within the fiercest tornadoes, wind speeds can approach 300 miles per hour. Air rushing in to fill the low-pressure void left by the tornado creates additional fierce, potentially damaging winds.” Source: “Scientists unravel the twisted ways of tornadoes,” by Corey S. Pwell, Scientific American, May 20, 1996. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00007AD9-70C1-1C76-9B81809EC588EF21 Updated Findings: “A few important new findings have been made. We have found that boundaries, which are the leading edges of pools of cooler air left behind by thunderstorms, are prime locations for later tornado formation. Evidence suggests that the temperature contrast along these small-scale "fronts" supplies the air with horizontal rotation like a rolling pin. Then, when a mature storm moves across a boundary, the rotation is tilted upward into the storm's updraft so that the spin has the orientation of a top, while at the same time being stretched and intensified. This process imparts strong rotation to the lower levels of the storm updraft, which seems to be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for tornado formation. Tornado formation itself seems to be strongly linked to the character and behavior of a downdraft at the back side of the supercell storm, recognized for many years as the "rear-flank downdraft." In tornadic supercells observed in VORTEX, this downdraft straddles two regions of opposite rotation: the developing mesocyclone, with its cyclonic, or counter-clockwise spin, and a region of anticyclonic, or clockwise spin, that spirals around the outside of the downdraft. As this downdraft develops, it carves its way into the main storm updraft in the shape of a hook. In fact, this downdraft often contains enough rain to produce the hook-shaped echo seen on radar reflectivity displays. In effect, the downdraft draws rotation downward from aloft, while at the same time focusing it toward a common center. Once the rotation is focused enough, it becomes strong enough to develop a funnel cloud and raise dirt and debris at the ground, becoming a tornado.” Source: “New findings on the origins of tornadoes from VORTEX, by Erik Rasmussen, NOAA Research, updated 2005. http://www.oar.noaa.gov/spotlite/archive/spot_nssl.html Hurricanes: “Warm sea surfaces provide latent and sensible energy for hurricanes to grow and rough land surfaces drain energy by frictional process from hurricanes….hurricanes are largely sustained by physical processes in the storm’s eyewall. The concentric patterns appear wave-like, propagating both inward and outward with respect to the hurricane center.... hurricane tracks are greatly affected (one could say...steered”) by the large scale upper level winds and hurricanes cannot maintain intensity and structure in the presence of environmental vertical wind shear.” Source: “Controlling the Evolution of a Simulated Hurricane Through Optimal Perturbations: Initial Experiments Using a 4-D Variational Analysis System,” by R. N. Hoffman, C. Grassotti, J. M. Henderson, S. M. Leidner, G. Modica, and T. Nehrkorn, Atmospheric and Environmental Research, Inc., 2003. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...83940.pdf hurricane, power flux density&hl=en I am unable to find ANY information about electromagnetic activity in tornadoes or hurricanes, although the United States Air Force has a program within their Air Force Weather (AFW) called University Partnering for Operational Support (UPOS) that is collaborating with various universities to develop “electromagnetic propogation forecast maps generated from MM5 output.” Source: “The Federal Plan for Meteorological Services and Supporting Research Fiscal Year 2006,” Office of the Federal Coordinator for Meteorology (OFCM), U.S. Department of Commerce, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). http://www.ofcm.noaa.gov/fp-fy06/pdf/entire-fedplanFY2006.pdf
>> As the updraft moves, it rotates; if the rotation grows sufficiently intense, >> yes, I have read the inadequate theories.... no one can explain how a massive vortex maintains its integrity (shape/structure) Gravity is a spiral, so yes you see this vortex in falling water, and rising smoke. But this is only a start of the action. All those links are description rather than cause via a process that can deliver the energy/power required. As far as I can make out, the theory is totally lacking.... however spin gravity theory (in the right hands/mind) would explain it. At present ESGT is only theory that can be applied to the Universe..... local manifestations would be supported but I do not have the physics background needed. But I push on, learning more as I walk the path.
>> there seems to be three different spin cycles involved. yes two primaries and a resultant. In ESGT there is a preferred frame of reference, this is not absolute, in the sense that there is always input from outside.... such that the Sun's field spin is a consequence of the galaxies field spin.... which is a... I call the primary spin a toroidal spin frame, the Earth's field spin, a poloidal spin frame is driven by the toroidal spin system If you include the Moon, the Earth's field spin is toroidal and the Moon's field spin is poloidal. It is the field spin around a body that results in "gravity", but as you can see, that field spin is differentially driven by another more powerful spin.
