Humans are robots

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Teddybot, May 22, 2009.

  1. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    Don't know much about the double slit experiment do you?

    Heard about it?
    I've done it.

    Wrong.

    Also wrong.

    Even if the above were true they wouldn't be the reason for the existence of the universe.

    Aliens aren't a possible answer since they'd have to be external to the universe in the first place: i.e. god.
    Other possibilities?
    Sure: something you haven't thought of.

    This thread will end up in Pseudosci fairly quickly since it's turning into even more nonsense.

    I take it that by "sort of proves" you mean "doesn't in any way indicate".

    It breaks down at the quantum level?
    Wow, that would mean we wouldn't be able to use QM for things like, say... computers and stuff.

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    No deduction?
    Have you spent your life under a log or something?
     
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    And one more thing to be added to your list of errors.
     
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  5. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    Based on the book "A new kind of science" by Stephen Wolfram, the universe seems to be deterministic. Unless there is a higher level of structure in a multidimensional level, that is different, we are stuck on this deteministic world.

    You have to read the book to understand the basis.
     
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  7. Teddybot Intelligence replicator Registered Senior Member

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    20
    I agree with all of you very much.

    Listen around 6:00min he explains that neurons are classical not quantum:
    video.stumbleupon.com/#p=ovcjc2isyd

    You sir have zero free will and a piece of a larger system with zero free will.

    As the waveform collapsing is explained we are seeing that it operates on deterministic principles.

    If you look back you see two types of arguments.
    One side with facts and another side with random quotes, waving arms and loud egos.

    The problem is the two sides take two different approaches to arguments.

    One side is to woo the crowd.
    Another side uses logic and evidence to support claims and works up from there.
    The things I post are results from logic and evidence- the posts against mine use no logic or evidence just personal fears and ego.

    Being right isn't the best thing in the world. There are more people who operate on delusion as they do not study what logic and cognition is and examine their own thinking. The thinkers of the world are burdened by the masses and their non-thinking

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  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Oops. wrong again.
    You're falsifying your own argument if that's your "opinion".

    Also wrong and wrong again.

    If we truly ARE deterministic systems then there's NO POINT WHATSOEVER in you trying to pass this information on.
    We can't change our minds since we're pre-set.
    But then again, you're pre-set to try...
    Have fun robot.
     
  9. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,848

    So what exactly will the difference be after watching this? you sound like it is very profound and life changing. I will watch it after this documentary finishes but it better not be lame and stuff I already knew. everything you stated is kind of obvious except your tread title uses the word robot in a strange way why pick robot when s many other words would fit the bill better because you know robots are created by sentient beings and are products of imagination right?


    Peace.
     
  10. Jozen-Bo The Wheel Spinning King!!! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,597
    Beep-a-dee-beep...

    I...am not...a robot...

    Must destroy thread...beep-a-dee-beep...Must destroy thread....

    Zzzz.....zzzz....

    Need more oil......


    Beep Beep
     
  11. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,848


    Silence Android before I EMP you.



    War.
     
  12. sentrynox Registered Member

    Messages:
    55
    Ignorance of other theory on the mind...

    Well, you should ALL read that before saying you know it all about the brain! Yes, there is electrical energy in our brain, but there is also much higher energy levels at work in our consciousness, mainly at quantum levels, which follow the theory of emergence.

    Roger Penrose:
    search friesian penrose Because it seems I cannot yet post links here...

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  13. X-Man2 We're under no illusions. Registered Senior Member

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    403
    It seems like anytime Iv'e read discussions on free will,everyone is talking about some sort of limited free will.Like what shirt to wear,or what profession to go into,you know everyday things.Well Iv'e always thought of free will as anything that you could possibly will yourself to do or want.

    My question is what is this free will supposed to mean exactly.And is it's use only what is within our capabilities?

    Thank so much....
     
  14. Tnerb Banned Banned

    Messages:
    7,917
    I've never met someone so intent on finding the answers to issues which have already been presented to him.

    Humans are not robots but they are the creation of robots. This is the problem with society.
     
  15. thinking Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,504
    actually you hit on free-will without relising it

    MY QUESTION

    to question and the freedom to do so is the essence of free-will

    whether from within ( in your thoughts ) or without ( express out-loud your thoughts ) and/or the combination of the two
     
  16. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    I'll try to simplify my point through just an explaination of my own observation.

    I sit in my room in front of my computer, sat upon a chipboard desk, next to a wooden shelf covered in purchased games and programming paperbacks.

    If Determinism exists to the extent that there is only determinism, then every sub-atomic state of every atom that makes up those objects that surrounds me is position where it is "Absolutely" suppose to be.

    However I do not agree that is the case, as you see the desks are shelves are made of wood, a material that once grew and grew based upon the weather and eventually before being felled and taken to be converted into planks or chippings someone had to make a choice over which tree to fell. In during the processing phase and plank or chip could have been assigned, which meant there was yet more choice.

    The same could be said for the life of the books, afterall the tree didn't know what was going to be printed on it.

    As for the Plastics, well as you should know, millions of years worth of decaying plankton generated oil, that oil was then pumped from the ground and taken to multiple refining locations around the world and converted into plastics by many companies so they could create CD's, packaging and Computer components.

    Again the same could be said of the metals which themselves would require ores to be mined, then the metals smelted into alloys and forged into the various shapes that the computer, desk and fixings required. Those molecules that make them would have gone through thermodynamic entropy by the will of man.

    My point in explaining all this is that although I might well have had a computer on my desk, it might even be labeled the same computer, it's not necessarily the soul deterministic computer if implied to a multiworld scenario. Other "similar" computers would exist where different atoms had taken to the molecular bonds, which means those atoms would be superpositioned with the other products they could of formed instead.

    My argument about say a Rock on a planet in Alpha Centuri (if such a planet exists), is that we have not invested our will on that rock. We haven't caused it's makeup to be superpositioned through any chance matrix. It is a rock determined to be just that.

    A rock on earth however has been enfused with life entangling itself with it. Afterall if you get a fossil embedded in the rock, that fossil is displacing where the determined make up of that rock should have settled, forcing it into an entropic chaos.

    Thats why I said, Life is the source of Chaos, without life there would only be order.(Determinism)
     
  17. Enmos Staff Member

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    43,184
    That could easily have been determined to happen. I think you see determinism as some sort of prophesy, which it is not.
    Determinism is just the result of cause and effect, and I'm pretty sure you won't contest that

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    Actually, life reduces entropy in itself while it causes it to increase in it's surroundings.
    And, as SLT says, the entropy of a closed system tends to move towards maximum anyway, life or no life.
     
  18. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    Well I won't disagree with you on your points but I see the universe a bit like a Giant Software platform. The very fundemental layer of such a platform is the boundaries (Determinism) which defines how the system reacts and to what commands, the layers that are then placed on top of that are programmed by different people with different goals in mind. Sometimes they conflict and generating "Chaotic" results which can be exploited.
     
  19. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    6,606
    So what does "Chaotic" consist of... thangs happenin wit-out cause.???
     
  20. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    6,606
    Originally Posted by Stryder
    Sometimes they conflict and generating "Chaotic" results which can be exploited.

    Whats you'r esplinaton for thangs that hapen wit-out cause;;; magic... God.???
     
  21. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    Well you could say nothing happens without a reason. If there is no "Cause" there is no "Effect". So in essence it implies Determinism but only as a foundation.

    I guess you could suggest a metaphorical understanding being a Table Top. You can determine it's dimensions and how much weight it can hold, however it is still open to have a myriad of objects placed upon it's surface in varying positions and a number of uses for the tablet top. No two table tops will be alike for that reason (Unless there is a conspiracy to make it so)

    As for "Without Cause", what are you refering to?
     
  22. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    6,606

    oK... wit that "foundation" aside... give an esample of an "Effect" which has no cause.!!!
     
  23. Denise Registered Member

    Messages:
    1
    While there are some aspects of humanness that can be explained by understanding humans as robots: logical thought, math-based calculations, and some forms of learning; there would seem to be many aspects of humanness that cannot be adequately explained by this model.
    These are some examples of that which I have thought up: Ever know a non-human robot to worship God? Ever know such a robot to heal itself? Ever know one to decide to start a war except as programmed to do so by some human? Or to think up an original analogy (such as humans are robots)?

    As for the pre-deterministic view of our choices, it would seem to me that an answer outside of the alternatives of "yes" and "no" is the most viable, especially when the time scale considered is substantially greater than the ones that have been proposed. For perhaps in the moment of deciding whether to opt for the red purse over the black one there is not much choice as one's predispositions have already been largely predetermined, but where do those predispositions come from? Do we by exerting some degree of choice as to what we decide to experience and HOW we choose to interpret those experiences in the long run determine for ourselves some of our own predispositions?
    An answer of "sometimes" would be enough to refute the idea of absolute determinism this thread is championing. A great deal of exacting proof would be required to support your claim, until it is done the question remains without answer.
     

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