Humans are robots

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Teddybot, May 22, 2009.

  1. Teddybot Intelligence replicator Registered Senior Member

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    20
    Welp,
    To todays date all research indicates we are 100% deterministic.
    While there is quantum instability beyond the atom the atoms of our mind are stable.
    Neurons are made of atoms and no thought or action has ever been demonstrated not to be 100% the product of their states.

    The mind itself is following the same physics as your faucet to let you believe it is magic

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    Go on lets hear why people are the only thing in this universe to conduct electrical signals in such a manner...

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    How your thoughts prove that your thoughts are not made from just your mind!

    It would be nice to hear you say this after you watch Jeff Hawkins part 1-5 on you tube as you do not know these things about how your mind works and are ignorant of what circuits your mind is made of. He will tell you things you have never heard because he has done the homework of truth. You will enjoy yourself more when you know how you work and won't be so uptight about what thinking is etc...
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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  5. Cybernetics Registered Member

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    I concur, I metioned this awile ago in a thread on free will. we have no free will becasue we will always make the same decision dependent on experiences and brain state. However many times you repeat somthing, same thing in same thing out, we have no free will becasue it is a provwen imposibility. I we decide to exercise our free will by making an od decison that could be prodicted on a molecular scale. It is efectivley like rewinding and replaying a video, nothing will change.
     
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  7. D.W. Dr.Weirdo Registered Senior Member

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    11
    You mean we live in a repetitive age? Yes thats true we just do the same thing over and over, but it's thats non freedom we need to pay bills, love our family, we use a slavery-like technique to remember things, brainwashing ourselves to learn, do, and act.
     
  8. kurros Registered Senior Member

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    793
    "Neurons are made of atoms and no thought or action has ever been demonstrated not to be 100% the product of their states."

    I would think this was a very hard thing to prove either way. I'm not yet convinced our brains don't take advantage of quantum effects, in fact I am almost certain they do, partially because of the experiments like Thompsons circuit design by random mutation stuff (Damn Interesting have an article called "origin of circuits", it's a good article). It has a good example in which a circuit 'evolved' by a fitness algorithm (the circuits were a set of 100 or so changeable logic gates) seems to have taken advantage of some kind of crazy electromagnetic self-inductance effect, aside from the regular logic gates it was intrinsically provided with, to perform the task for which it was 'evolved', to such a degree that no-one could figure out how it actually worked. The process of natural selection is just as, if not far more powerful than this simple test and I think it very likely that the brain has evolved to utilise all sorts of quantum phenomena which are highly difficult for us to comprehend. Doesn't necessarily give us free will but I'd guess it will turn out to be far more complex than can be explained by classical electrical/electromagnetic/signal processing theory.
    Maybe not though. I have not yet watched these Hawkins videos so I'll go do that and perhaps I'll change my mind.
     
  9. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    Incorrect. If you were to have a universe completely devoid of life and functioning only to the rules of physics, then the universe would be a deterministic one. However since life evolved in our universe, it has a nasty habit of making choices that go against physics, thereby generating paradoxes through choice.

    A simply example is a stylised woman deciding that she doesn't want to take her red handbag to a dinner because it doesn't match her black shoes. It's not following a physics logic, it's following a lifeforms folly in regards to taste.


    This isn't correct either. A persons thoughts are a product of their cellular construct. Namely the Neurons firing down Axioms and producing changes to the synapses. While indeed all of this is made from molecules which is in turn made up of atoms, the brain does not process information at that level. In fact the only processing atoms do is really in regards to being in a molecular state.

    The process of natural thought is chemical driven, to force thoughts in a human mind it takes a radiological reaction of those chemicals. There is no sudden "Electrical jump" where information just shoots across.

    You'll find there are many other people out there that know more about the human mind. (i.e. Rodger Penrose)

    In Jeff Hawkins case I would pose that he looks upon the mind for inspiration in regards to innovation, this means that some of the ways he might perceive the human mind to function can actually be slightly inaccurate, but it doesn't matter if you are of course building technology to mimick those points and not attempting to hook to a real mind.
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,221
    Her decision as to what hand bag to take is presumably the result of the material in her brain behaving according to deterministic physical laws. And what do you mean by " devoid of life and functioning only to the rules of physics"? So far as anyone can tell, life obeys all rules of physics, just like everything else.
     
  11. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    1,135
    Our minds and intelligence use same materials (natural elements) and same natural forces (atomic forces, electricity). However if this reality makes us robots, it surely qualifies us as “animals” too. Yet it does not: Although we are somehow eating and dying agents, we know that we are different than other animals for obvious reasons. If we do not separate these things, we can not see the differences or similarities between agents, and everything becomes simply nothing but stardust.

    We are not animals, not robots, not God’s creatures. We have no shelter to hide us from our responsibilities as humans. It does not really matter what circuits we are made of, or whether we know how our minds work or not. Because we separated ourselves from nature’s project, and we have capacity to manipulate them according to our aims. We now know things, and we will know more. Neither our knowledge was completely given by nature, nor our entire intelligence (and its capacity) have been developed by only nature. We have also contributed its capacity via our own history of thought. Now we realised what parts we are made of and seriously started to interfere our existence including our environment.

    And “artificial” or “robot” means only one thing: Human made. These are the concepts that nature has not intended to create. If one day robots start to create tools or systems, they will not be human made. Just as we use nature’s possibilities, but what we create belong to us, not to nature. We are not responsible from earthquakes, and nature is not responsible from oil burning cars.
     
  12. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    Nasor,
    Have you ever had a conversation with a rock? A rock doesn't make decisions, it's inanimate and follows physics laws any conversation you throw at it will not spawn it to do anything irrational or different. With human beings they have the capability of attempting to work around those physics laws to do things that aren't technically natural to us, like for instance flying in aircrafts or using submarines to go to depths that we could not survive or even taking a walk in space. We also chop and change our minds based upon how we "feel".

    I guess you can say a rock doesn't have "Factor X" and therefore is determined. The truth of the matter is however that its a duality similar to the waveform/particle duality. Both exist at the same time and require to exist for the universe to be the way it is.
     
  13. Cybernetics Registered Member

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    We are merely using tools, animals in nature use tools and have been shon to be devloping them very quickly across the animal world. a rock is not alive, that is a useless example. in responce to earlier comments, nature is not a person or ruling force, nature is a pointless abstract concept. Things cant "belong" to nature. but if they did we would too. We use tools, animals use tools. WHat makes us different form animals is that we use tools more and so have more time to create more tools (its called science people) so we advance quickly.
     
  14. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    987
    all?
     
  15. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Of course "all".
    You simply have to completely ignore any contradictory data/ research/ evidence.
    There's no other choice.
     
  16. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    987
    110% of all research shows Bush was the greatest man in this universe, and others as well.
     
  17. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    As Tuber implied, this is simply untrue.

    The "stability" or otherwise of the atoms in our mind is beside the point.

    Nor has it ever been shown to be the 100% product of their states.

    Presumably you're referring to water coming out of the tap?
    Interesting choice of example since water drips from a leaky tap were one the early experiments showing how indeterminate real life is. How fundamentally non-deterministic.
     
  18. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    What a load of bull. Good thing that others actually take the time to refute it. *goes back to sipping tea*
     
  19. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Pfft, you're just too lazy to chip in.
     
  20. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    Partially true, but other than that I don't feel like repeating what others already said. Beating a dead horse is a bit boring..you know..
     
  21. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    The fact that a rock isn't able to have a conversation while a person is, does not mean that both rocks and people don't both obey the laws of physics.
     
  22. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    1,398
    I would've thought that one of the things which stops us behaving in a totally deterministic way is the strength of our emotions. To take a sci-fi example, your average Vulcan is ten times more likely to be totally deterministic because they've got (almost) complete control of their emotions. Someone like a human, though...they're far more likely to go nuts because their emotions screw them up. Life goes pear-shaped for us all the time precisely for that reason. It's the main tension of the Star-Trek series, if could continue the analogy. Emotional masters like the Vulcans, who have their emotions so stitched-up that they scarcely put a foot wrong...as against emotional retards like we Humans, who fly off the handle at a moment's notice...

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  23. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Your emotions are a product of your brain, and all the matter in your brain operates according to the laws of physics. Your emotions are a deterministic product of the laws of physics.
     

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