How will gay marriage change the world?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by arauca, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Here is why that's stupid. If you think society has any influence in creating these disorders, then they aren't disorders, they are cultural artifacts. But the truth is that this phenomenon is fairly uniform across all cultures, even when those cultures are highly repressive. You don't solve a "problem" by hiding your head in the sand.

    In any case, transexuals have been able to marry the "opposite" sex for some time now, since they have legally changed their sex.
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Not true. They were routinely attacked, murdered, fired, and kept in hiding like it was something evil.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I think you missed the whole, unfairly imposing your sexuality on others caveat. And you are invoking the old slippery slope fallacy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
     
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  7. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Do you keep your marriage status to yourself? Or do you wear a ring, and tell the IRS whether you are married or not?

    I've got another one for you, why should we allow anyone to marry? It paves the way for bestiality! You see? Doesn't work.
     
  8. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Ummmm.... I don't even know how to respond to this. I'm a guy who happens to like guys. I have no concern for transexuals, nor do I have any desire to behave or appear as a female. The way I see it, the two (gays and transexuals) are completely unrelated. There are plenty of straight men who want to be women.

    I have no desire to create a new society. You're over-generalizing and going to the extreme and implausible end of the spectrum. The only thing I'd like to to be able to marry my partner. Other than that, I do not see how me marrying my partner will have any affect on you or the rest of society.

    You've got to be joking, right? You are naming things that are completely unrelated to each other. Did it ever occur to you that bestiality and pedophilia are transparent among gender and sexual orientation? Homosexuality has nothing to do with either of them. And you apparently do not understand or accept that two members of the same sex can LOVE each other. You don't understand that it's not just sexual or physical. It's emotional, spiritual, and everything else. I love my partner the same way you would love yours, regardless of gender.
     
  9. rodereve Registered Member

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    Haha I found the MJ comment to be comical, should've thought of that.

    I took your word for it, so I looked it up and this is what I found.

    American Psychiatrist Association > The DSM-III-R, published in 1987, retained the term transsexualism. The DSM-IV and DSM-IV-TR: Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents and Adults replaced the term transsexualism.

    So APA substituted transsexualism for the term Gender Identity Disorder.

    International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems > The ICD-10 incorporates transsexualism, dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder of childhood into its gender identity disorder category

    ICD still includes it.

    Yes, but hermaphrodites are part of nature and humanity. I guess this is more of a case of intersexed individuals. Having a penis is natural. Having a vagina is natural. Having a penis and then turning it into a vagina, not natural. In this case, they have both genitalia, and so it's not swapping one out and then putting on an entirely different thing.
    Well, we don't know exactly what and how MJ pulled off such a feat (I haven't looked it up lol). But skin color change is just the tip of the iceberg, just like hormone replacement therapy is for transsexuals. E.g. If he really wanted to become asian (sorry about the generalizations about asian physical traits), then he might undergo surgical operation to make his eyes more oriental, maybe cut off part of his femur to become shorter, transplant out his thicker african american hair for straight hair. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with changing your hair or oriental eyes. There is something wrong with changing your hair or eyes BECAUSE you think you're actually an asian man. That is a mental disorder and a delusion we should not be promoting.
     
  10. rodereve Registered Member

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    That's a very good argument. But the problem is you shouldn't separate cultural disorder from normal metal disorders.

    Mental Disorder: A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development in a person's culture.


    Culture provides the context. Imagine an OCD that compelled you to drive over clowns with your car. Well if your culture didn't have cars or clowns, this OCD wouldn't exist. but I still think that individual would have a mental problem. I guess I can see where you're getting at though. But I don't think taking cars and clowns out of the equation will make that individual completely sane. Who knows.
    Yeah, so if I change into a transwoman I should reserve all women's rights, including going into their washrooms, changerooms, community showers. That is just really odd to me. If I change into a black man, should I reserve the claims to affirmative action. Agree to disagree, but that is just messed up lol
     
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    But being gay or transsexual isn't illegal in the USA, it's actually common, so it's part of our culture already, which means it's normal. Anyway, we shouldn't discriminate against people with disorders. I have a disorder called autism, but I should be allowed all the rights of any other citizen.
     
  12. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    I have a disorder as well! For some reason, my foot tends to swing, often logding in the anal cavaties of specific individuals. I think I might have an allergy to BS which causes this reaction.
     
  13. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Billvon,

    Thanks for clarifying that video as I was unaware of the surprise ending. It was funny, and yet I was upset enough over the start of it I switched it off.

    If anybody watches it pay attention to the end.

    Dang. I finally made a mistake on Sciforums. It was a good 10+ year run though.
     
  14. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Nobody's perfect.... well, except me, of course!
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Right. But again, that does not define transsexualism as a disorder. It describes disorders that involve transsexualism.

    Let's take a simple example. You have almost 200 posts on here; I am sure you post on/read other forums. The DSM-V describes this under "Internet addiction disorder." Does this mean you are sick, because you post a lot? After all it's in the DSM-V! (Answer - no, not unless it causes you problems.)

    Let's take another example. A friend of mine is a woman, but used to be a man. When she was a man, she had gender identity disorder. Then she had reassignment surgery - and is now cured. Thus she no longer has any kind of a disorder.

    No, true hermaphrodites are incredibly rare; I can think of only a few examples in the history of medicine. Ambiguous genitalia is far more common, and is generally a genotypically male who expresses only a partial set of male genitalia. Often these are reassigned to female at birth.

    True - but neither is circumcision, or birth control, or cooked food, or antibiotics. Just because it's not natural doesn't mean it should be avoided.

    Let's see - he bleached his skin, had a dozen cosmetic surgeries that cut off pieces of his nose and lips, and used subdermal filler to alter the shape of his face.

    Well, again, Jackson wanted to be white. And that's up to him.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No they couldn't live their own life - because when they tried to live it they were harassed, persecuted, arrested, beaten and killed.

    Yes. In the same way we created a new society by freeing the slaves.

    Provided it's between two consenting adults - right, there is nothing wrong with that.

    Nope. That's not between two consenting adults.
     
  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    14,660
    Definition of bigotry:

    "Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, religion, language, socioeconomic status, or other status."---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    24,133
    Two mistakes.

    I am not Billvon.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    Homosexuality and transexuality is not a mental disorder and is not abnormal.

    And yes, if you became a woman, you would be expected to use the women's washrooms, etc. Transexuals who do once they come out as the sex they actually are instead of what they were born with.

    It is not a mental problem, nor is it a mental illness or disorder.

    If you were somehow to have some sort of treatment or surgery to make you become a black person, then yes, the laws would protect you from discrimination. Why do you think that is strange?

    Why do you believe that only certain people should be protected against discrimination (and denying homosexuals the right to marry is discrimination) and the rest should not have said protection?
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Marriage, in the civil and governmental sense, is a legally contracted relationship. I'm not sure what interest the government has in checking out the contents of my pants before allowing me to sign an otherwise standard contract with somebody, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't square with general US principles of civil liberty and minding one's own business.

    I don't think marriage in the religious sense is involved in any of this. Why would religious people care? They'll still have what they've always had, no loss to them.
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I have no idea what you mean by "accepting transsexual cases."

    As I said before, those on the right who are promoting Christian values are themselves Christian. If you want conservatives in office who aren't on the religious right, then elect more moderate conservatives.

    Once again, you are incorrect. Transsexuals do not have to be gay.

    But even taking your post as a whole, there seems to be no point other than to express your disgust at transsexuals, particularly the process by which they become the other sex. You've made claims about perversions of humanity, and straw man arguments about gender reassignment in the womb, but you haven't made any legitimate claims or supported them with credible arguments. So, again: What's your point?

    Straw man. I specifically said your examples of racial reassignment (and even species reassignment) were arguments ad absurdem, and therefore logical fallacies. So I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with being born Asian, just as there's nothing wrong with being born a woman. The "mistake" is in the transsexual being born, essentially, into the wrong body. The surgery corrects that mistake.

    In the case of gay rights, the "slippery slope" could be argued because those were a logical progression of rights. In the case of transsexuals, you offer an absurd and incomprehensible example as the end of the slope. And I've already explained to you that there's no way to identify transsexualism in the womb, so the point is absolutely moot. You're just trying to conjure shocking imagery. That's been your play from the start.

    You keep saying it's perverse, but you don't explain how. I'm left to assume you don't have a valid argument.

    Homosexuality used to be listed as a disorder, but was removed. Transsexualism is in the process of being removed from the list, as well, so your point is moot. But let's put that aside for now, and just say it is a disorder. You've avoided my question of what your alternative treatment is, so I'll pose it again: What is your alternative? Pretend they don't exist, and allow people to suffer because the surgery makes you uncomfortable?

    And you still haven't explained why it shouldn't be treated exactly how it is currently treated, except to say it's perverse. You're going to have to do better than that.

    A couple of problems here: First, the absence of strap-ons in the animal kingdom is not evidence against the existence of transsexualism in the animal kingdom, and the suggestion that it is only shows the low level of intellect I'm having the severe displeasure of debating with here. Secondly, strap-ons are not indicative of transsexualism even in humans. Seriously, you want people to take you seriously, then you say stupid shit like this.

    No, by all means, provide more unsubstantiated claims. There weren't enough of them in your first post.

    So is transsexualism. Despite your efforts to paint it as an abomination, all that's being done is the addition of one sexual organ and the removal of another. Nobody's adding extra legs or anything of the sort (not that you've explained why that would be so bad, of course; you haven't explained anything, just repeated your same condemnations over and over, like an angry old person shouting at the neighborhood kids from their porch) they're just trying to make themselves feel whole. That's kind of a beautiful thing.

    You're not even clever enough to realize what kind of a hole you've dug for yourself with comments such as that. What about the guy who loses a thumb and replaces it with a toe? By your own logic, that's a perversion of humanity.

    Another straw man/appeal to the absurd. Is there something wrong with you that you can't argue on the level, or is it just a total lack of ethics?

    What you don't understand is that your only reasoning for the condemnation of this "abnormal" behavior is that it's abnormal, that logically leads to the conclusion that all things abnormal are worthy of condemnation.

    Nobody's defiling anything. A transsexual isn't any less human than you are me.

    Another straw man. Are you incapable of anything else? I never said that having an opposing belief makes you a bigot. What makes you a bigot are your specific beliefs. You know, such as the claim that transsexuals aren't really human?

    If you want to peg me as being intolerant of people who say stupid and hateful things about others based on their gender identity issues--or, a bigot of bigots--then I'll accept that.
     
  22. arauca Banned Banned

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    I agree You could care less hoe I live and I fell the same , You happy with your mate great. Now why do you have to get married ? Marriage does not mean a dam thing to you you and your partner will not have children so what is the purpose to go with the signing a commitment .?
     
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Who says they won't have children? Who says marriage doesn't mean anything to them?
     

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