How to spot misogynists and misandrists

Your initial comment was about incels:

Your first article that you linked, from GQ Magazine for your research addresses misogyny and the comments about childhood trauma or abuse:

“Even in a nurturing family, a child will grow up with chauvinism,” says Jukes. “Culture and society are the seedbed where the child’s misogyny takes root. The construction of the woman as the carer is all around us, and that is part of what informs men’s rage with women. In my millennial patients I don’t see any difference to patients I was seeing decades ago.”

Masculinity, then, appears on a sliding scale, usually depending on a boy’s childhood environment and trauma. All children experience negativity, with indifference or neglect at one end and physical or sexual abuse at the other, and the more painful childhood is, the more likely a boy is to emerge as “hyper-masculine”. Meanwhile, the more masculine a boy is, the more he represses his feelings about women, so the more misogynistic and abusive he is likely to be. This also works in reverse, with hyper-masculine men also more likely to be emotionally vulnerable, even helpless.​

On the subject of incels:

Incels – the online subculture of self-loathing “involuntary celibates” who define themselves through their inability to find love or a sexual partner – fit this misogynistic pattern very neatly. Paradoxically, these self-proclaimed losers also exhibit a kind of hyper-masculinity. The cultish nature of incels is not an aberration but an extension of male psychological development: a need to control mixed with a sense of humiliation. It’s always someone else’s fault – in the case of incels, it begins with a belief that genetics has dealt them a bad hand. Damn you, Mother Nature.

“The rage and righteousness against women represent one felt injustice after another,” says Jukes. “Incels’ basic premise of ‘She won’t let me fuck her’ is about as straightforward an Oedipal statement as you can make.”​

The biggest take away from the GQ article you linked was in how to combat sexism and misogyny - involves breaking away from the notion that women and mothers are the care givers and the father is the dominant one who is working to take care of the family, and instead looking at a shared and equal household, where the child grows up seeing shared and equal responsibility.

You know, getting rid of the inherent and ingrained belief that women are less than, have to stay home and care for the kids while the man goes out and works, etc.. Misogyny has its roots in that power and male dominant state.

Your second article "Mother wound as the missing link" - essentially blames misogyny on patriarchy but somehow or other blames women and mothers for misogyny and patriarchy.. You can understand how this is problematic, yes?

Your third link does not really address the comment you made about incels and childhood trauma. Instead, it addresses some of the root causes of misogyny.

Note should also be made of the fact that incels who have gone on to kill women, were not from abusive households.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...uld-be-treated-differently-when-it-comes-hate

 

There seems to be this desire to not offend here. Your comment, which is the one I addressed, spoke directly about incels. So you understand my raised eyebrows when you responded about misogynists primarily to my request for supporting materials to the comment you made about incels in particular?

Misogyny is not just hatred. I'll give you an example - a man who is an incel and first his views about "incels" like Rodger:

Michael has nothing but scorn for Rodger, not just because of his senseless, horrific crimes, but also because his behavior demonizes chronically celibate men. Guys who can't get women aren't just losers and weirdos anymore. Now they're losers, weirdos, and potential monsters. This contributes to a climate where, as Michael sees it, it's better to "just keep quiet, because otherwise you can be misinterpreted in all sorts of negative ways."​

By any interpretation, he would be one of those incels who doesn't hate women, right?

But then, he goes on to say this:

"The bulk of my anger is over the fact that virtually all women are dishonest to the point that even they themselves believe the lies they tell."

"The reality, and I make no apologies for saying this, is that the modern woman is an impossible to please, shallow, superficial creature that is only attracted to shiny things, e.g. looks and money…."

"I think feminism is the most destructive force in history."​

Misogyny is not just about hating women. Michael is deeply misogynistic. Not only are his views stereotypical and sexist, but he also dehumanises women to being a 'creatures', dishonest, deceitful, etc.. Such negative views of women is quite common in the incel community.

I think linking misogyny and misandry as being similar is wrong, personally. For reasons I linked in my previous post.

We know where it stems from and its history. Think back to Aristotle as a prime example. Religious texts and historical writings are misogynistic. A patriarchal society that treated women as chattels moving to our current times where men see fit to determine our rights and attempt to deny us our bodily autonomy, to victim blaming and shaming when a woman is raped, as prime examples of where misogyny stems from.

Misogyny stems from society. It's in our laws, social customs, religious customs, etc..

Articles linked and studies support misogyny and to a lesser extent, misandry, stemming from childhood. But it's not so much from abusive childhood as it is from systemic bombardment of negative and sexist stereotypes about women and it is pervasive.

http://s18.middlebury.edu/AMST0325A/Jane_Back-to-the-Kitchen.pdf

 

Okay, this is what I was addressing when I asked you to support your claim:

And I know that is what I was addressing specifically, because that is the sentence I quoted when I asked you to support that claim.

You responded by linking articles from 3 different sites, none of which addressed what you had initially said.

I am well aware of the type of incel you were referring to, because I literally quoted you saying what type of incel you meant.
So when you then responded with:

You still failed to support the initial claim and the kind of incel you meant.. "Studies have shown that incels who use abusive language about and towards women, and have a deep rooted hatred of them, usually stem from some type of childhood trauma".. That is not supported by the 'research' you linked from GQ magazine and the other websites. The incels we know of, who used such language about and towards women, and who went on to kill, suffered no childhood trauma.

That is why I queried your comments and then change of subject if one could describe it as that.

Which begs the question.. Why have you lumped it in with misandry?

Women are harassed on the street, in the classroom, at work. We’re assaulted in clubs, on the tube, on the bus. We’re raped in our bedrooms. We’re murdered in our homes.

While no one would seek to deny or diminish the impact of violent crimes and harassment against men, before misandry is considered a hate crime, serious questions need to be asked about whether it fits the definition. Does misandry intimidate, instill fear in, and seek to control men in a community? Are men repeat victims of misandry? Is misandry a tool used to prevent men from living their lives freely, and from taking up public space? Is a violent crime against men an incitement to commit violence against all men? Does misandry limit men’s opportunities, and stop them from enjoying the full benefits of our society, leading to segregation and isolation?
​

That article questions making misandry a hate crime in the UK - comparable to misogyny and in connection to that, the incel movement that openly advocates for harming and killing women and girls. Does misandry do any of that, so much so that it is comparable to misogyny? Compare it to the list Mr Woodcock has, that you linked in your OP..

The reason I am asking this is because misogyny is not just about hatred. It is about the continued domination of women, within the public and private realm of our lives, be it over how we live to our own bodies. It is connected because women are deemed less than our male counterparts. We have less power and it feeds into misogyny, just as misogyny feeds into the continued denial of our rights. In other words, the abortion debate would not exist and we would have our fundamental human rights without having to fight for it in court, if we were considered equal.. Misogyny is also about a belief that we are less than, are valued less and worth less and it ties in with hatred quite well. After all, misogyny is also about the ingrained injustice and unjust treatment of women.. So when you lump misogyny in with misandry, you can see how the two cannot be compared, yes?

The only people who stand to gain or who push the whole misogyny and misandry are the same, are the men's only rights advocates who support and demand the current patriarchal system remains in place.

 

The backgrounds of a number of high-profile incel killers are on the public record. Why assume they suffered childhood trauma if there's no evidence for it?