How to spot misogynists and misandrists

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by wegs, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    It will always be biased because of the history of a patriarchy based society that will continue to underline any system they adopt.

    Australia also has a merit based system. Do you think it is fair and just?

    Why you keep pushing this in this thread of all places, defies belief. The "merit based" system literally protects men, predominately white men. Why do you think the men's rights movement keep crowing about it so much and keep demanding it be kept in place when any notion of women's rights is brought up? Are you that blind to what goes on around you that you haven't noticed?

    Not only do you think a "pure merit" based system is better (whatever that means, since that is what we are meant to have now), you decide to add a Confucian angle that has historically and presently denied women their rights and instead, forced a social ideal upon them about what their role should be because they are women.

    Talk about misogyny!

    I am not the one resisting the obvious.

    You, on the other hand, troll by making up this utter rubbish in your head and try to pass it off as fact and when challenged, try to claim it's your own personal opinion while repeating the same rubbish. Do you even understand what a Confucian meritocracy even is? Or is this another case of you doing 50 years of research (*chortle*) and "personal experience" where you have nothing to show for it but your own perverse imaginings?

    And now a dose of reality..

    Wages in Iceland:

    In Iceland women are paid about 18% less than their male counterparts, if working in the same job with the same level of experience; for comparison, the average European wage gap is 16.2%.[12] Excluding ranking, position, and hours worked, the average annual income for women is 28% less than men.[45] In rural areas, the pay gap is generally larger.[41] At the current rate,[49] women will not experience equal pay until 2068.[49] The Icelandic government has said it aims to close the gender pay gap in Iceland by 2022.[50]

    Sexism, gender based violence in Iceland:

    According to a new study, around 80% of women in Parliament are exposed to gender-based violence. In May, the study surveyed 33 women who are working in or have recently quit Parliament, with 25 women responding. The results of the study are presented in a new book by Dr. Haukur Arnþórsson, which was released on October 18.

    The study finds that about 80% of Icelandic women in Parliament have been exposed to psychological violence, and 28% have been subjected to sexual violence. Additionally, 24% reported physical abuse, and 20.8% said they had experienced economic violence. Economic violence occurs when women are denied terms of employment or facilities to which their position should entitle them, or when their property is damaged.


    Do you think this is a relative success?

    Male colleagues interrupt me constantly. Not just me. I will never forget the time my office was visited by a high-ranking official from an important partner company, who, after being interrupted by one of my male coworkers repeatedly, leaned over to me and whispered, “Good God! I can’t get a word in edgewise!” Once I told a coworker that I would be working with him on a project abroad, to which he responded, “Are you coming along to get us coffee?” Another time I walked to the coffee machine in my socks (like a lot of people do) and one of the old men at my work asked me if I was planning to start dancing on the table. And then there is the time I was giving a colleague critical feedback and was interrupted by my colleague who said, “Don’t listen to her. She is just being difficult. She is so hard to handle when it is that time of the month.” I was so shocked, I couldn’t speak. What year is it again? Did I just spontaneously teleport into a ‘Mad Men’ episode? Where I am from, people get sued for saying shit like that.

    I recently attended a founding meeting for an Icelandic association of women in science. The organisers were unsure how many people would show, but they should not have worried. I estimate we were 150-200 women, who were determined to take two hours out of our busy Thursday nights to attend to what we all saw as an important issue. The subsequent lectures were fascinating. And disturbing. Women working in scientific fields in Iceland, as with other disciplines in other places, are grossly underrepresented in leadership roles. While roughly 60% of science undergrads are women, the number of female professors in the field is more like 26%. The gender ratio in science and engineering is abysmal. At one point, a presenter asked us to think of the reason why we were there. It occurred to me that all the women sitting next to me likely had a collection of nasty stories similar to mine, bubbling under their skin. It made me angry.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    From your attitude and posting I see that you believe feminism(**) is a lost cause. Am I right?

    (**) definition I am using
    feminism
    /ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/



    noun
    noun: feminism
    the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Only if you cannot read..
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Would you have any objections to a discussion thread being started on the subject of "A Meritocracy - Egalitarianism"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Why are you asking me?

    You are free to start any thread about the protean doctrine and how it (whichever one(s) you wish to discuss) applies to meritocracy and we all look forward to your back up any claims you may make.

    On the plus side it will mean that declaring things and then hiding behind personal opinion because you are too lazy or have no intention to do any research will not be an issue, because you will be expected to provide supporting material (by way of links, etc).
     
  9. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    3,264
    Is this supposed to be an attempt at humor or something?

    Really? And what are some of the "many ways" you allude to?

    You tout this "original thinking" bs without acknowledging that original thinking - if it's to be of any substantive value - generally involves thoroughly familiarizing oneself with much of the work that has been done beforehand. Otherwise, it's simply baseless speculation.

    And your posting here makes perfectly clear that you haven't, and for reasons known only to you, can't even be bothered. Yet, this doesn't keep you from speculating nonetheless.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,632
    Where the heck do you get that? It's like you are reading one thread and posting in another.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    What I do know is that the current approach is a big fail...
    If you have any solution start a thread...and discuss them.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    First sentance post #181 refering to a fully merit based system
    For starters there are many others...
    Maybe reading the thread would help.

    As far as my research shows no true meritocracy has been implemented. Other than possibly in science fiction. (Star Trek Federation system...some, not all stories)
    If it has been maybe a link would be usefull.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,632
    First sentence was "It will always be biased because of the history of a patriarchy based society that will continue to underline any system they adopt."

    Our society will always have vestiges of patriarchy. That does not mean that working to reduce that is a bad thing - or that it's hopeless. We can make it better even if we can't make it perfect (which we will never be able to do.) True for far more things than feminism.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    So i was right... thank you very much....
    The equality of the genders is simply not regarded as possible by Bells or you for that matter. Thus feminism as defined, is a lost cause . Unless you think partial equality is somehow an acceptable substitute for equality.

    It also is a matter of what you consider the definition of Equality to mean in this context...

    Equality in Government means equal gender representation with equal vote value... yes?
    Equality in the home means similar...an equal partnership.
    An equal partnership between genders means no patriachy at home...yes?
    If agreed then feminism as defined earlier is indeed, not a lost cause.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Out of curiosity if the 300 odd members of Congress consisted of constitutionally mandatory equal gender representation, what do you think would happen to USA Culture over time? Say 3 generations.
    Imagine the similar for say, Russia....Australia, Japan, North Korea, India...etc...
    Heaven... here we come.... lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,632
    Nope. You're not getting it in several ways.

    We will never end the use of oil. Do you feel therefore that any attempt to reduce fossil fuel use is a lost cause?

    Also, equality of the genders is not possible. I will never get pregnant. Women will generally - on average - be smaller than men. That's OK. The goal is not forced equality; that's a fool's errand. The goal is equal _opportunity._ And that is possible, if far away today.
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,632
    I love this.

    You claimed a few posts ago that "a patriarchal system . . .can not be by definition a fully merit based system." Now you, a man, are proposing to mandate numeric equality in government.

    Do you see any irony at all there?
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    Possibly true but nature may very well force our hand regardless of what we want.
    You really need to consider what equality could mean rather than applying obsolete criteria.
    How about starting with equal importance, equal respect etc and figure your issue with pregnancy into that as a start.

    The problem is that to men it is about power. Ending a patriachal system will not be easy as men fight to retain their illusion of power. But it is possible if men are brave enough to regulate and self regulate so that it can be.
    Edit: please excuse the typos as auto correcting mobile devices ....are a pain...
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all... how else are you going to move from a patriarchal system to a equality based system.
    The transition over 3 generations or so would require some pretty strong affirmative action. As Bells has stated there will always be a patriarchal base line to deal with. Affirmative action is the only way to get past that base line...
    So bite the bullet, amend the constitution and mandate equal gender representation in Government... wont happen.. or...will it?

    edit:
    Now that I am at home using my pc,
    I can see the irony but only if I assume the patriarchal perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,632
    By having a guy take charge?
    But wait! What about races? Surely if you mandate equal representation of gender, you are a racist unless you ensure that there is a perfectly equal representation of races. And what about LGBT people? Unless there is a perfectly equal representation of LGBT in government, it's unfair. And the disabled! And the Muslims! And the veterans! And the . . .

    Do you see how that might become . . . ridiculous? We don't need to make people equal through government. We need to ensure they have the same OPPORTUNITIES through government. (Specifically, that no one can deny them those opportunities.)
    So you think it is possibly futile to reduce our use of fossil fuels? You won't even try because it's impossible to end their use 100%?
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    My personal belief is that we simply do not have enough time. Nature is going to do it for us... We need to use all our resources to build sustainable habitats so that we as a race do not become extinct. In the process of doing so lettng go of using fossil fuels in the future, is the only way we will ever be able to leave those habitats freely...once the climate has stabilized and recovered...

    The patriarchal system has failed humanity terribly... and change is inevitable.
    Just look at the BS that is going on in the USA Senate at the moment... totally pathetic...IMO
    And Trump seeking to force women to go full term is absurd. Forced pregnancies, I mean think about it...a pregnant women being forced to stay pregnant....!!
    Fair point but perhaps one step at a time may be in order...

    Think about it... with the birth of the feminist ideal of gender equality and merit, the issue of bigotry, racism etc may very well evaporate because the emphasis is no longer on power but on merit. Racism is primarily about power IMO

    So many societal ills would virtually disappear.

    Just the proper protection of the child, alone would solve a huge amount of issues.

    It would be a huge leap but certainly not impossible..
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,914
    That is not an excuse not to do it, though.

    Unless you know more about the future than the rest of us, we move in the right direction without consideration for possible disasters that might or might not befall us.
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    sure... but we really need to build those habitats starting now, not tomorrow...
    IMO climate change is no longer a risk, it is a fact.
    Once you accept that it is a fact then it isn't hard to see where we are heading even if we stop using fossil fuels completely today.

    IMO Human nature as it is will prevent adequate CO2 reduction until it is absolutely necessary** and you know what that means...
    (**) Imminent life and death situation

    any how another thread... perhaps
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020

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