How to avoid get married with an APD person?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by entelecheia, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

    It's seagypsy that had the bad husbands. I happen to be a man who had the bad fortune to meet a narcissistic female sociopath, so I can relate to others that have had similar experiences. Believe me when I tell you, that's not an experience I would care to repeat again. It's a strange feeling to realize someone you care about only thinks of you as their personal property to do with as they please at anytime they wish, without any concern for how you might feel about it.
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  3. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Add to that, property to be dispensed with when you have outlived your usefulness to the individual. In my case, he intended for me to die at a certain point and when I failed to do so it threw a monkey wrench in his entire plan.
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  5. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Actually... it's right on target and on topic.
    The point is that you're inferring a lot based on just a couple of posts. A bit precocious, yourself, eh?
    I've witnessed a great deal about this- his profile hits the nail on the head.

    There is a great deal of information to the story that you are obviously unaware of. You jumped to conclusions and speculated.
    Granted, I agree that people should not throw about unwarranted psychological diagnosis against others and it is way too common.

    Bear in mind that S.G. had over 2 years to research this because a great deal of that time, she blamed herself for her sons abduction.
    She was nominally aware of it before, from what I gather.

    The man displays all those symptoms in abundance. He is one of two people that I've ever met during my lifetime that I became aware of such things. I almost opened this topic myself, actually, but figured that would be in poor taste and chose not to.
    The man has many identities, many alias and man persona's. Each one suited to his financial needs.
    It is almost indescribable, the lunacy of dealing with him. He would, at first, have you convinced he's good and normal and upright. Before long, he'll have you convinced you've wronged him after he's totally screwed you over.
    What has been seen I cannot describe in a few posts on the internet.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
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  7. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

    I know that feeling. It was quite a relief to put 1600 miles between me and her. But what was even worse was thinking I might have to kill her before she could do on to me. I didn't like that option very well, so moving worked out much better.

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  8. Engell79 Registered Senior Member

    OH and as allways... im a bit wordblind, so spelling in a languish thats not my own eh'.....Sorry for spelling in all posts.

    Hi Neverfly...

    dont understand what u mean by above, maybe a languish barrier but please elaborate on what ya' mean...

    Following is not to offend anyone and certainly not the unfortunate souls that BELIVE they have been in contact with a sociopath.....

    Unless YOU ARE a psycologist or atleast someone that works in the field U DONT KNOW! what the persons problem or diagnose or issue is!
    I work with ppl every day with a multitude of social disorders, psykological ilnesses and multible diagnosis wich i dont know the word for in english....
    WE TAKE YEARS! before we actually classify someone as being something or another!, and this is done by professionals...
    SO wen someone here on these forums claim to have been in the clutches of a sociopath or psykoptath or Narsisist or what ever im saying...
    Dont jump to conclusions!

    You say he fits the bill on a Sociopath..yes he prolly does, he also fits the bill on half a dusin other diagnosis that could bring out the same symthoms.
    And by symthoms i mean ALL the things he has done as explained.

    now my point is this....

    SG has by far experinced something unplesant and really scary...
    Her Ex husband by allmeans sounds like a duche, and "butt hole" og epic proportions in every aspect of his being
    That still doesnt make him a sociopath, or even a person that's in sociotpathic range...
    I dont know the full story, and needless to say i never will... If SG feels good about her own diagnosis towards her X thats good for her,
    but im in my full right to question it.

    And yes, he might be a Sociopath, but he might be a ton of other things aswell.

    not gonna discuss that more, dont whant to become on bad terms with anyone!


    The OP whanted to know how to avoid comming in to contact with abusive ppl and manipulating individuals....

    I can offer the advice of reading some basic psyc. books about BORDERLINE personality disorders. I think u'll finds this intresting cuz borderline can be very manipulating, SOME! not all... but there is a
    general tendency, that persons in close relation to borderlines have a higer rate of suicide and depression( mostly their kids & spouse.)

    Futher i would recommend reading some general psyc books, about the various types of ilnesses there are, i think u will find that many of them can hold very abusive personalities with in or explain the creation of them. reading these books, i think will open your mind towards what to look for, and what to be vary of!
    now on that topic remeber this.... Most NORMAL PPL!!!! have 1,2 or more behaviours or tendencies wich fall with in the range of some psycological disorder. This dosnt make them ill or psycopaths or what ever, just normal human beeings.... most of us have some 'oddity' with in us, wich is actually 'normal'.
    SO after reading the book, also remind your self not to OVER-analyse others...

    Last ill say this, and that's my final word on the topic, its a quote from one of my patients, wich i found enlightend.

    "I'll never start a relationship again, unless the relationship i have to my self is good and healthy."
  9. Neverfly Banned Banned

    I don't know what it is you misunderstood so I cannot elaborate since I have no idea where the disconnect was.
    Your point is valid and accepted. I don't disagree and I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong- however, you are as much in the dark here as you assume others are- You have no clue if he's been accurately or professionally diagnosed at all- in a way, you're guilty of what you're preaching. You've jumped to conclusions.
    So consider your point noted.

    The issue for this topic is how it relates to the O.P.- Avoiding people that show these characteristics. I don't think the O.P. cares (I could be wrong) if it's one disorder or another very similar one- they would have a negative impact best avoided and the O.P. asked about that.

    Keep that in mind.
  10. Engell79 Registered Senior Member

    hi sorry for the mistake in the name thing... =)

    im not trying to "down size" what any of you have been threw, im just saying that "Bad" ppl can be alot of things other than sociopaths, psycopaths or narsicists.
  11. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I wasn't married to him for a week. I was married to him for 8 years. I had plenty of time to document his behavior and get advice from professionals. Sociopathy isn't easy to diagnose directly. A sociopath will never go to a psychiatrist and ask to be evaluated. And by their nature they will easily evade such a diagnosis. The only way to determine if someone is a sociopath is to observe them when they don't know they are being observed. Through direct observation as well as interviewing others who have dealt with them. This is highly impractical. In my case, I have not only my own experience with him but the combined experiences of other women who have had the misfortune of living with him. As well as testimony of many who he has conned out of money or possessions, including his own brothers, father, and sister. He is leaving a trail of victims and we are starting to seek each other out to compare notes. Also remember, that his first wife is a psychologist now and had her own amount of time to get to know him. And she concurs that he is a sociopath. She is the one who urged me to study the disorder. So it is not just the opinion of a few disgruntled laymen, it is the professional opinion of one who did spend a substantial amount of time with him, observing his behavior during their relationship as well as observing how he has behaved with subsequent wives , friends, business contacts, and even his own family members including his children. I have maintained contact with his first wife since before he and I ever married. She tried to warn me about him but he had already told me she was a spiteful, vengeful person who was jealous and would tell any lie to break us up. Now we are divorced, if her motives were jealousy she would have no motivation to continue to maintain contact with me. I don't give her money and she was not instrumental in the return of my son. She has only updated me when he takes a new wife or when he produces another child. She has also confirmed wives other than the ones I have first hand knowledge of. Also many of the claims he made about her I was able to verify were absolute lies. So I have no reason to believe any claims about her, considering he makes the same claims about everyone he disposes of.

    I don't doubt that he has many other disorders, but this one is the most pronounced. As killjoyklown pointed out narcissism seems to be prevalent as well. I am willing to consider schizophrenia or some other delusion producing disorder. But the presence of other issues does not negate the very blatantly prominent issue of sociopathy.

    On a side note: Your English may not be perfect but you seem to be doing well enough at getting your point across. And you do have a valid point.

    I was prematurely and wrongly diagnosed as bipolar due to my ex convincing me that I was. He created something similar to the placebo affect in me. I started developing or noticing symptoms that weren't really there as he pointed out what the symptoms were and manipulated me into attributing those symptoms with innocuous behavior that I displayed. He had the same control over me and my perceptions as Charles Manson had on his followers.

    As I mentioned before, I have been more accurately diagnosed as having anxiety and depression based on my visits with a psychiatrist as well as the doctor talking to my family members who have known me all my life to determine if bipolar was justified and they determined that it was not. An they also mentioned that it seemed at the time of the previous diagnosis I seemed to be under the influence of a sociopath.
  12. Engell79 Registered Senior Member

    I know im stepping out of bounce here on the original topic...

    were i live, we have centers for females and males who have been in the type of relationships u'r talking about. at these ppl who has come clear of it, often comes and talks to ppl in it, being and understanding ear, who understands what
    no one else can.

    If there are centers like that were u live, i think u should go there and tell your story, and talk to females/males who havent yet come clear... your experinces and life lessons, could change alot for these ppl.
    from what i can read, your pretty clear about all of it.
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Probably but we aren't safe yet. He is still out there and still a danger to us. Once I have gotten him removed permanently from society somehow I would be willing to go on any TV show that would allow me to tell the story so long as it is a reputable show.

    As it is i had a nervous breakdown when my son was abducted. Checked myself into a mental health facility and the doctor said I was delusional and that I wasn't even married to my current husband. He cut my current husband (Neverfly) off from contact with me and had me sent to a state hospital in handcuffs. Even my mom wasn't allowed to have any contact with me nor was the doctor listening to her when she told him my claims were true and offered documentation to prove it. He also denied me my regular medication for other medical issues I have that could have led to my death. Needless to say I am seeking legal action against him. The doctor at the state hospital released me immediately when I told her my situation and she seemed disgusted with the doctor that committed me.

    So with that ordeal I am not all to willing to share my story with professionals anymore.

    I want to note I think the original doctor had a religious bias against me. He also was a Pakistani Muslim and I believe his motives were to side with my ex husband and remove me from the picture so that my son would be raised Muslim. But that is just speculation. It could just be that my story was so bizarre he wrote it off without even considering the possibility that I was telling the truth. Or he may not have liked that I wanted to go home and thought I was there of my own free will. I also threatened to sue him if he didn't allow my husband to bring my medication. It was the next day that he decided I needed to be committed permanently.
  14. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

    Have you thought about writing a book? You could take your time, make sure the details you want to share are exactly right. Plus the whole process could be very healing to you personally.
  15. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Quite a few people have made that suggestion to me, some have even suggested I sell my story to a movie maker. I just dont want to be on display like that right now. There are many aspects of it that are very private to me. And until we are safe, I am not willing to be so open.
  16. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

    Writing the book and publishing it are two very different things.
  17. seagypsy Banned Banned

    enh, I got better things to do. I don't let it run my life. It is just a program running in the background like anti spyware or antivirus.
  18. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Indeed. As I pointed out in an earlier post, Homo sapiens is a pack-social species like many other apes as well as wolves and elephants and a lot of other mammals and birds. Our instincts are programmed by DNA to care about a small group of people we need for survival. Herd-social animals like cattle, on the other hand, are programmed to be minimally polite and tolerant to a large group of anonymous strangers and band together against an attack by predators, but at the same time not to be charitable to them in any other way. An elephant mourns a dead pack-mate; a wildebeest simply steps over the carcass of a herd-mate and leaves it for the hyenas.

    We've spent the last twelve thousand years building a civilization that both permits and requires us to become more herd-social, to care for and depend on anonymous strangers on the other side of the planet who are no more than abstractions. And by golly it's a testament to the power of our enormous forebrain that we have actually managed to do this: as I often mention proudly, Americans wept over the real-time cellphone videos of Neda dying in the street in Tehran, despite three decades of propaganda from our atavistic government telling us that the Iranians are our enemies.

    But our instincts have not caught up with our culture. Those 12,000 years are only a few hundred generations and DNA simply does not mutate and evolve that fast. We're still cavemen deep inside, wearing this cloak of civilization and hoping we don't have a wardrobe malfunction--especially all at the same time, a phenomenon we call "war."

    In other words, we depend on our parents to help us learn how to override our instinctive programming and become civilized adults who genuinely care about each other because that makes a better world for everybody so it's in our own selfish interest. Your point that anyone can be a sociopath is correct, except for the fact that he does not become one, he simply does not grow out of it.

    It's not within the social norms of any culture. Talk about being programmed by our DNA! Human babies take a decade and a half to reach maturity--whales only take two years and elephants five. This means that they require long-term care by not only their mother, like most mammals, but also by their father (who is cajoled into staying home by the unusual biology of human females: they can copulate when they're not in estrus and even when they're pregnant or nursing), and even by their grandparents (unlike most animals, humans keep living long after our reproductive years are behind us, so we can continue being Elders in the Tribe).

    We are all programmed to take care of children. The newspapers are full of accounts of perfect strangers running into a burning house or diving into a flood to rescue a child they've never seen before. I guarantee that you who are reading this would do the same thing, even if you claim not to like children. It's an instinct.

    A person who can abandon his own children is sick, and should have that stamped on his forehead. He isn't just not civilized, he's not quite fully human.

    And of course nobody wants to do this. It smacks of distrust, and it sure interrupts the fairy tale that leads into a wedding. Kinda like a pre-nup. "Whattaya mean??? You don't trust me??? Screw you!" This is something that will have to be legislated. Americans have a seemingly infinite capacity to tolerate any indignity so long as it comes in the form of a bureaucratic ritual. How many of you have peed in a cup to apply for a job, and not tossed in the tech's face?

    Sounds like an advertisement for arranged marriages. Your parents are not blinded by love, and they have resources you don't. I've known several Indians who had arranged marriages and they all say they get on their knees and thank their parents for finding them the most wonderful husband/wife in the universe.

    As I said before, don't be so hard on yourself. We have enough difficulty appraising people from our own culture. People from other cultures often come with a built-in exotic factor that makes them automatically seem like a great catch. In addition, they may not have any of the flaws we keep finding in our own people.

    I had a Chinese girlfriend for a couple of years. She was gorgeous and demure and all the guys thought I was the luckiest man in Los Angeles. She was not a sociopath or anything that bad, but the more time I spent with her the more I realized that she had absolutely nothing going for her except her exotic charm, and that's what reeled me in--plus the fact that I was delighted to have someone at home to help me improve my Chinese. She was lazy, haughty and never bothered looking for a job now that somebody else was paying the rent and buying the food. When I got angry at her for doing nothing around the house, she said, "I would have this place looking like a palace and there'd be a fabulous dinner on the table every night when you get home... except you won't let me hire any servants!" In a 3-room duplex!

    If you know you're not emotionally well, you're probably in a lot better shape than you give yourself credit for.

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    Yeah, killing somebody is the kind of thing that follows you around forever. Even if you manage to avoid being convicted of murder, it eats away at your soul.

    Ah yes. Religion, mankind's biggest handicap. There isn't any problem that religion can't make worse.
  19. elte Valued Senior Member

    Indeed, teaching and understanding these ideas is the key to our collective futures. I often boil it down to an axiom. The following paragraph is a way to say it.

    Desire to fight or compete against only non-person things that can harm (y)our existence--things like disease and lack of knowledge. This way, the struggle becomes one against ideas, and we don't think of it as being against a person or people, and we become angry at situations instead of a person or people.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    Yes and no.

    Sociopathy amounts to (in part) someone not being able or wired to care, if that makes sense?

    If someone is born a sociopath, you cannot teach them to care.

    It is also worth noting that his condition would have been noticed from a fairly early age. It is quite possible that those around him put it down to his being spoiled by his mother, for example, but the signs would have been there. I am going to assume that he was raised by his parents and had the company and socialised with others outside of his mother. So he would have seen or witnessed and come into contact, from a very early age, the notion of care. He is not someone who was raised in a locked room with no contact with any other person. We do not teach our children to 'care'. What we do is care for our children and we love them and that is how they learn 'care'. He would have observed it in his own up-bringing with his parents and siblings.

    It is also possible that while he appears to display many of the traits assigned to a sociopath or even a psychopath, it may also be possible that he's just a selfish arsehole. However, you have known him for a long time and know his behavioural pattern and would have had a chance to observe him and his traits - from his nice and manipulative self to his destructive and frightening self. Having come into contact with clinically diagnosed sociopaths in my time, you have my full sympathy for the horror this man has thrust upon you and your family.
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Yes, well said. We teach children to care by example, the same way we teach them other fundamental skills.

    My parents never said one word about "race." They never pointed to anyone and said, "See, Little Fraggle, that man is 'colored' (the word we used in the 1940s), but we should still treat him the same way we treat 'white' people like us." They just went through their daily life treating all people the same, regardless of whether they looked like us or not. So I never even thought about it. I grew up believing that we're all the same and it's no big deal.

    Needless to say, I was shocked when I became old enough to read newspapers--just about the time the civil rights movement got off the ground and 'white' people were killing 'colored' people and even other 'white' people who were trying to protect them.

    We still didn't talk about it at home; my parents were not the most articulate people. But eventually I realized that when those people were children they were simply not taught right by example.

    The genesis of the Generation Gap in the post-war era was that the Baby Boomers could not help noticing that the things their parents were teaching them by example were wrong. They'd seen the photos of Auschwitz so they knew racism was wrong. They'd seen the photos of Hiroshima so they knew war was wrong. So they rose up and defied their instinct to learn by example.

    As I've said before, the history of our species has been the overcoming of instinctive behavior with reasoned and learned behavior. Most of the time it works.
  22. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

    4% of adult population in USA are sociopaths. Sociopaths, as a rule, are very charming and social they just don't give a shit about people and the world at large, more exactly their brain circuits are wired not to give a shit, there are no pills or "self-improvement" techniques to battle sociopathy. There is nothing they can do about it. Like it or not, powerful incarceration industry and police state are the only forces that keep low level sociopaths in check. They do make good soldiers though. Sociopaths in uniform do disproportionate (to their relative numbers) share of killings. However, the rates of sociopathy are society & culture specific. Asian cultures that traditionally promote "communitarian" interdependent values somehow manage to suppress genetic components of sociopathy. Western (and especially American) culture promoting individualism and competition resonates well with genetics of sociopathy. If I remember correctly, for every Asian sociopath there are at least 20 Western sociopaths. Since, as we well know, world is being Americanized, sociopathy is doomed to mushroom. 1 in every 25 is sociopath, 1 in every 25 doesn't have conscience, that's not a small number yet we hear a lot about Nile Virus a nothing about global pandemic of sociopathy.

    According to "Sociopath next door" by Martha Stout, conscience is " an intervening sense of obligation based in our emotional attachments to others", some people just cannot form any emotional attachments, for them everybody and everything are just objects and or resource to exploit and to play with.

    According to Stout, there are two distinct types of sociopaths, "parasites" and "masterminds". Parasitic sociopaths are too inert and passive they are just happy to find a person(s) (or an institution) that would feel sorry for them enough to take care of their needs. "Masterminds" looks on the world as a chess board of domination and control, they are not afraid of risk. Yet, both group lack consciousness as in "sense of obligation based in their emotional attachments to others". It's a good book, she gives some practical advices on recognizing and avoiding sociopaths.

    BTW, if one would look at so called "conservative" ideology of today in the light of " an intervening sense of obligation based in our emotional attachments to others", it becomes clear that entire ideologies can be sociopathic too.
  23. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Dixonmassey, this looks far more like a rather demented political rant than it does any kind of informative post on the topic.
    In fact, I question where you got your statistics from.

    I remember not so long ago, the former Soviet Union declared that Serial Killers were purely a Western Phenomenon and such things never happened in the USSR (Requiring the apprehension of scapegoats every time a serial killer was on the loose).
    You're going to need to back up your claims a little better than that and maybe, just maybe, try a heavier veil on your political slant.

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