How or does birth control affect history?

Discussion in 'History' started by desi, Aug 16, 2007.

  1. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    So you are saying we should fuck and populate like rabbits until we are crawling over one another just to breath? Thanks but no thanks. The problem my friend, is that not everyone wants to live scattered all across the US and cover every bit of square mile so we look populated. People gravitate to major cities and ports which are overpopulated. That's the problem. We aren't running out of room, but we certainly can't start kicking people out their homes to go live elsewhere because we want to cease using BC and make massive amounts of babies.
     
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  3. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    I'm saying that civilization requires people. We need to reproduce at least at the rate of replacement or our societies die. This is happening in Europe and Russia as we speak.

    A society, hell, a species that does not reproduce is a dying species.
     
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  5. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    and the same can be said for a species that reproduces too much. They strip their habitat of resources and become a dying species.
    right?
     
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  7. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    How can you say that the human species is in any kind of danger of dying out? There are 6 billion of us running rampant across the globe and you're worried about Russia and the pill. Unless every woman, on every continent, in every country, in every state/providence, and in every city and town decides to start taking it all at the same time or every man goes sterile and suddenly lacks the ability to get it up, then we are in no danger of running out of fucking homo sapiens. China produces at a rate so fast that if every person in China were to stand holding hands and form a circle around the world, it would just keep going because that is how fast they reproduce. Now, like I said before, if you are worried about one specific race in particular, then speak up. Otherwise, I am sorry, but I think you have no argument. Unless aliens are planning a massive take over of planet Earth, that is. Then we're screwed, pill or no pill.
     
  8. Learned Hand Registered Senior Member

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    I'd also add that birth control, in some form or another, has existed at least since the Dark Ages. Probably much, much earlier. And we're still growing.

    The problem in Russia is cultural. Most men are alcoholics and die fairly young, and the women want security, not somebody who passes out as the thought of sex hits him.
     
  9. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. I don't know much about ancient forms of BC, but I do know that as far back as the Roman Empire they had forms of abortion, herbal and otherwise.

    As far as cultural problems, I also agree. The use of BC may be hindered depending on cultural acceptance as well as gender roles. The lack of reproduction will probably also be due to the health and well being of a country or "civilization". Despite all this, the human species seems to be thriving. Necessity is the mother of invention. I don't believe that BC would have been thought of if wasn't necessary. People are trying to accept the responsibility of being able to reproduce and making sure that it happens at the right time. BC is beneficial to any society.
     
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    If we are under-populated and should have some concern for our future, we would never have made it this far at all - we would have gone extinct 20,000 years ago, no?
     
  11. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. I don't see how, in any way, shape, or form, that we are in danger of being underpopulated. I think BC is necessary. Not just for overpopulation, but just for the fact of keeping unwanted children from suffering.
     
  12. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    We didn't have effective birth control until the sixties. Sticking a pig intestine on your penis is no where near 99.9% effective. Even if it was, men hate to wear them and often talk the female into "taking the chance".
     
  13. Learned Hand Registered Senior Member

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    And the population still grows . . .

    And let's not forget the good ol' Catholic school boy method. Or vasectomies or tubal ligations.
     
  14. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Not in Europe, especially not in Spain.
     
  15. Learned Hand Registered Senior Member

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    I can see your point on the support of birth control, but who is to say such children find no appreciation in life? From a moral history standpoint, I do believe the proliferation of various birth control methods and their modern efficacy has shattered many of our "Victorian" era values (i.e. no sex before marriage, etc.) which used to keep teenage pregnancy low and reproduction rates at a culturally tolerable median. Social and familial chastizement for unwed or teenage pregnancies (whether religious or culturally bound) were the mainstream of "birth control" before the pill and its progeny. Thus, from a historical standpoint, I view modern era birth control as a potentiator for moral degradation and a decrease in the societal sanction against pre-marital sex. Is it that we have morally evolved, or have we taken a step back to our more beastial/animal roots by using BC as mental blinders to guilt, personal responsibility, risk and comittment?

    Going out on a limb here -- if creationism and evolution actually coexist and intertwine themselves on this planet, which is a personal belief of mine, use of modern BC is our escape hatch from permitting both to proceed as a matter of science and values, and actually makes us more amoral and less fit to survive. It should be the human conscience and our gift of forethought that dictates our behavior, not a pill that helps us skirt the issue entirely.

    But I'm just a Learned Hand.
     
  16. desi Valued Senior Member

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    This is a very good point I don't think gets much discussion in sex ed classes.
     
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    No, they level out.

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  18. jessiej920 Shake them dice and roll 'em Valued Senior Member

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    I think that birth control is a necessity for our society. I never said that children don't find appreciation in life, but unwanted children, who are born to drug addicts, prostitutes, and young, unwed couples who cannot afford them, have a much tougher go at life then they should have. If a child does not have family support, then it is very hard to grow into an adult that wants anything more then what their parents have shown them. Which is usually nothing. This is not always the case, but in many circumstances it is. This is coming from personal experience.

    As far as the Victorian era and it's methods of "birth control", I think that it is foolish to expect these values to hold while our culture and society has obviously moved on and changed. Victorian values had more to do with women then it had to do with men. Women were not allowed to show even their ankles or wrists because it was "unbecoming" of a lady. Women were also considered "property"; given to the richest and most distinguished men who wanted them for their brides and their arm candy. These cultural values helped keep teenage pregnancies to a low level, not only because women were not allowed to choose their husbands or lovers, but also because religion was placed in such a high position that no one dare question it. This was usually Christian values, which believe that women are the original sin and that their only duty is to serve their husbands. Women were not to enjoy sex, they did not marry for love, and they certainly were not on equal level with their "beloved" husbands. Women were married off to breed and carry on the family name as well as bring money into their original family. They were pawns in a very large political and societal game.

    As science has progressed and overtaken religion on almost every standpoint, people are no longer swayed by these religion-based vaules. Women became equals; rights were given, so that women were able to vote and have a voice in society. As we have evolved, women became equal members of a society that used to ignore them and treat them like pure bred dogs; auctioned off to the highest bidder. It is not moral degradation that illicits the use of birth control, but the fact that as a culture and society, we have changed. Women want to take responsibility for the ability to reproduce, therefore limiting the birth of unwanted and unexpected children that cannot be cared for. It is not the use of BC that has changed us, but the fact that we have evolved as a society and that science has taken the place of many religious rules and proven them wrong.

    In the Victorian era, men were allowed to fraternize with whom ever pleased them. It was women that were limited. They were doomed to bare children to men who either made love to them on the side, raped them, or finally married them to avoid scandal. If a woman in the Victorian era was raped and became pregnant, it was seen as a shame on the family, but never held against the man who committed the crime. BC has allowed women to take control of their lives, which has never been allowed before. It is not an escape route. It is the ability to acknowledge one is able to reproduce, but not ready, it allows sexual freedom to both men and women, and it enables us, as a society, to decide when we are ready to reproduce. The Victorian values did not keep people from reproducing, it only kept people from recognizing the children they created out of wed-lock. In the end, BC allows women freedom of choice, which men have enjoyed all throughout history. It is taking responsibilty, not ignoring it.
     
  19. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Indeed it does. Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be around for too many generations.

    Have you heard of the "Roe Effect"? This is the idea that since women who approve of abortion and birth control are much more likely to kill their children and thus not reproduce, each sucessive generation will approve of abortion less and less.

    Statistics show that support for abortion is dropping, especially among the young.
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    CSUN awarded 425 master’s degrees to minority students, 148 to men and 277 to women.csun

    and how!!
     
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    fucking idiot guys must be fighting for flag and country over in iraq
     
  22. Learned Hand Registered Senior Member

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    As for science taking over values, religion, and self, I still think the question is still unresolved. Should not human morality potentiate a more prosperous society, or should we simply pop a pill and forget about consequences and become so individualized and utilitarian that we have culturally evolved into not just the "me" generation, but the "me" culture and conscience?

    The Victorian era definitely had its drawbacks. Women were property under the common law, and had no voting power. The pill did not change that. Moral and social revolution, through Susan B. Anthony and many others did. As for charged or arranged marriages, there was a bit of that in the upper class of English as well as American society. But on the whole, love did sway and woo the women (as well as men), and conception could be controlled through forethought and timing. The way I see it, it should be human morality which controls our deepest committments and affairs (children, love, marriage, sex), not the escape hatch of condoms, pills, or abortions.

    But again, I'm just a Learned Hand.
     

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