# How much time is needed for the time travel?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Eagle9, Oct 16, 2014.

1. ### krash661[MK6] transitioning scifi to realityValued Senior Member

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no, i'm not interested in pathetic individuals and their ridiculous shenanigans.

3. ### EnmosStaff Member

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Go back to school.

After you traveled your 40 miles, how far away are you from your starting point?

5. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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To learn that it's possible to back to 1854?

Who cares, the point is that you traveled 40 miles, like you just stated.

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8. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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I did, you just stated after you travel 40 miles. That's what we need to know, how far did I travel. 40 miles!

9. ### EnmosStaff Member

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I care. Please answer the question. And the one from post #52 as well.

10. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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No. I'm trying to educate you that time travel back to 1632 is impossible!

Time is cumulative, it can never reduce time from 2014 to 1329. Ever. Not in 1,456,876 years. Ever! Time can never get less, only more!

11. ### EnmosStaff Member

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After you traveled your 40 miles, how far away are you from your starting point?

12. ### Motor Daddy☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼Valued Senior Member

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If you end your journey of 40 miles at your start point, you are at your start point a duration of time later, and your odometer reads 40 miles more than it did when you left that start point at an earlier time that is long since past!

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Time and space spacetime are not absolute.
The laws of physics and GR do not forbid time travel in either direction.
Any sufficiently advanced civilisation that has the technology to manipulate/control spacetime, BH's, wormholes could possibly achieve it.
They are indisputable facts which you seem to lack the intestinal fortitude to answer.

14. ### Landau RoofRegistered Senior Member

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I hope you won't get me banned for disagreeing too, but I kind of see what the father of all motors was getting at. And, you have to admire his fine attention to detail for his photo of the AMC Pacer that was taken in a tropical setting that could well be his hypothetical Florida. Good job Mo Pa!

I looked at the links you provided (above) and they are, pardon me, just proletariat pop crapola. Not one of them contains a cogent point to prove that time travel is possible, and you know it.

Now your oft repeated, "not Impossible for any sufficiently advanced civilisation, that have the technology to manipulate spacetime and control BH's" statement: I pointed out earlier (post 30) that this just isn't good enough.

I don't know or understand much about theoretical physics and cosmology, but I do know that Hawking himself, the man who invented black holes, now says there is no such thing. I have seen the debates about the existence of black holes in this forum. Has it been conclusively shown then that there are such things and that wormholes are time portals?

I don't fully get wormholes either. Are they not just black holes with 'white holes' on the other end some where (no one can see where exactly) that some people say MIGHT be used for space and/or time travel? Again, they are wholly theoretical, and may not exist at all (The genius who first postulated them thinks so).

And then, your advanced civilizations, while they may very well exists are not known to. They are not exactly imaginary, but they're the next best thing: entirely unknown and unproven. And then they need to be so advanced that they can control black holes!? Wow! That's pretty dad-blasted advanced! Do they also eat red giant suns for breakfast? (Perhaps just on feast days, all right, we'll grant you your more than Kryptonian super beings - although they're more awesome than any thing known to comic book fiction)

Hence when the Motorer asks about two cars traveling toward each other north-south in the same timezone, I don't see how advanced civilizations with the capability to travel through wormholes is any kind of response. Let's suppose these benevolent masters of the universe deigned to help the guy in the AMC Pacer (Just because they're from an advanced civilization does not preclude they have taste in automobiles). What would they then do? Transport him and his vehicle to the nearest black hole? How far is that!? How many days, months or years to get there? Then propel the Pacer through the black hole, come out, say, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, ( a quick side-trip to rescue Princess Leia) then plenty of time to mosey back to Earth circa 2014 A.D. because they have 500,000,000 years to get there and with their (again purely theoretical faster than light, or even near speed of light) transport capabilities they have plenty of time to arrive in Florida at half past eleven, a good half hour before the race is even to start, thus proving time travel backward through time is possible. Is that what you mean? or maybe you are thinking of the Q continuum? Then they need only snap their fingers or wiggle their noses to achieve all this. Seriously? Are you proposing any such thing?

Really and truly, it is not my intention to put words in your mouth, let alone entire scenarios, so please explain how your supposed advanced civilizations with unimaginable levels of scientific know-how would get one of the cars to leave first (and travel farther than the halfway mark) by traveling backward in time. And when you explain, please bear in mind that BH's and super-sharp ET's are perhaps not real things, and that they may not be available to move us forward (or backward).

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Perhaps you need to question the moderator with whom he was in discussion with.
The conclusion you arrived is totally unsupported considering that.

[1] Science does not deal in proofs.
[2]I did not need the links and only supplied them as reinforcing my main points, which you seemed to have missed, in arriving at your previous unsupported conclusion.
[3]Those points again:
[a]Time travel forward or backwards, is not forbidden by the current laws of physics and/or GR.
Any sufficiently advanced civilisation that has the technology to manipulate space, time, spacetime, could well achieve it.

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.
I see it as excellent and straight to the obvious point.
see above [again]

So perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with those debates, and see from where those arguing for there non existence were coming from.
The evidence certainly still supports their existence, despite some unreviewed, untested quantum effects.
Anyone who believes BH's do not exist, need to come up with a better structural model as to what causes the incredible observed effects on spacetime and matter/energy around these gravitationally completely collapsed objects.
I'm still waiting for that.
Wormholes, like BH's are a certain topological structure of spacetime that is allowed for by the laws of physics and GR, although as yet we have not found any..

As already said, no we have not found any as yet, and have no evidence for such beasts, but GR so far has been 100% successful in its prediction rate.

Ignoring your smart arse derisive comments, the best advice I can give you is to research how big our galaxy is, how big our observable Universe is, how many galaxies it contains, how many stars in each galaxy, and how many planets orbiting those stars. At this stage I wont ridicule your derision any more by also mentioning the numbers of moons orbiting those planets, or the scale of the Universe on a whole, beyond the 96 billion L/years diameter of the observable part.
You are correct of course in that we have no direct evidence of any ETL off this Earth, but logic and common sense seems to dictate to me that we are nothing special, and with the stuff of life being everywhere we look, ET civilisations should be sprinkled amongst the many trillions and trillions of stars in the many billions and billions of galaxies.
The two great quantities that have prevented contact are time and distance.

Finally, when I speak of any sufficiently advanced civilisation, I also have in mind our own civilisation as it advances and as long as we can overcome our silly petty Earthly squabbles, we could very well reach that advanced epoch.

As I answered, the scenario given by your friend Motor Daddy was irrelevent to what I was proposing. Wormholes was one of the legitimate methods I proposed, as are Kerr BH's and ring Singularities.

At this point in time I should remind you of what one "otherwise" great scientist once said.....

"X-rays will prove to be a hoax."

"I can state flatly that heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
LORD KELVIN:
http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/papers/interview_aeronautics_and_wireless.html

The last statement was made in a letter to a colleague in around the mid/late 1890's...Only a decade before the Wright Brothers.

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And I have failed to mention probably one of the most famous speculative scenarios for time travel.....that of the

Alcubierre drive

And before any more interested parties feel like taking me to task, although the Alcubierre drive is a mathematically validated scenario, due to the fact that it is entirely consistent with Einstein's field equations, it is also highly speculative and at this stage of our progress we have no way to construct such a device, if it could be constructed.
That decision will need to be left to our advanced descendants a few thousand years down the line.
But then again, isn't that all I have been saying?

17. ### Landau RoofRegistered Senior Member

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Oh. Sorry, I thought it was you because although it may not seem like it I do have other things to do besides read through these discussions. What I saw was Motor Daddy proposing a thought experiment of sorts, and you refusing to participate in it because you think you are smarter than him. (Granted, you probably are!)
No, really? I am pretty sure it does, and even if it doesn't precisely do that it has more of a tendency to deal in proofs than just wander off into surmises about what might be, for instance, advanced ET civilizations that travel through wormholes. Such possibilities (mere possibilities) strike me as being more like science fiction/fantasy than science per se.
But how can they support your 'claims' when all they are is some one else's claims, and rather pedestrian ones at that? All I saw was more could be, and wouldn't be nice?' yakitty yak.
First of all, I don't see why emboldening your words makes your claims any more reasonable. Why are you doing it? (I have removed most of your emboldened type because it's just too silly) Secondly, you say time travel is not forbidden by physics or general relativity, but not being forbidden does not make it so. Does GR forbid Bigfoot? Whether time travel is forbidden or not is irrelevant, as it is not so. (see, that's how you use boldface)Then your Any advanced yada yada yada line again. How could you possibly know that, or even assume that?'Well achieve it!' Pishposh! Yes, and Bigfoot could achieve time travel too, if only we assume he exists and advances his civilization enough... but why would we do that!? Too many assumptions here, mate. You said,"Science does not deal in proofs." Well, it sure doesn't deal in assumptions.
No, but thank you, sir.
I can't! I read Hawking's Brief History of Time or about sub-atomic particles and the accompanying physics, and I understand it, but if you asked me to explain it five minutes later, I couldn't So, I admit, it's all rather over my head, but I do know what I know.
Glad to see you admit that they are unreviewed and untested. My point!
Sez you!

Look, I admitted it's all too hard for me, but as I've said, and you haven't responded to, it was Stephen Hawking who first theorized black holes, and it is he that now says he got it wrong. I don't know if he or anyone else has come up with a better model or not, but who are you to make such demands? (Hence my LOL smiley) What's your hypothesized structural model? The main man in the field said his model was wrong. You doggedly hold onto it and don't accept his reassertions. Who are you?
As am I , and maybe Motor Daddy as well. Let's all wait together, buddy boy.
Well, there you go then. Just like Bigfoot.
Does it predict advanced civilizations that can control forces of the natural universe?
Oh, please do ignore them. It's all in good fun, and I want to show that while you think your opinions are hard science, they ar in fact merely (often) baseless speculation.
Lovely, free advice! Thanks, but I think I understand as well as the rest of us first cousins to the amoeba are capable of comprehending how vast the universe is - which isn't much. "A man's got to know his limitations." -Dirty Harry
I am "OF COURSE right"! Oh ho ho! I like that! We'll leave that one Bold!!!
You are of course right! See that! You grant my one of my principle points, I grant one of yours...Why can't we be friends?
You see, I didn't continue my last statement with allowing that these advanced civilizations had necessarily mastered the universe (and could control black and white holes) because, as per my original and most salient point: that's just too far fetched to fathom! And here you are admitting as much. If your uber-Kryptonian ET's are so damned smart and white holes are the 'emptying out' of black holes in other parts of the universe, why haven't they figured this all out, mapped several hundred thousand and set up toll booths? Oh yes, that's right time and distance (space-time) they have mastered everything except for those, and well, so they don't have time machines yet!
Least likely of all, my friend. Look how we all squabble about gigantic things we know almost nothing about? Why, you probably don't even have the same favorite captain of the starship Enterprise that I do. And even if we could all stop squabbling, how does that preclude we will master time and space travel? What's the connection there?
Boo! Irrelevant? To what you were saying!? Talk about easy outs. Why do you get to say things and we all must pay attention and respond, but Motor Daddy doesn't? He finds the OP's question irrelevant, and proposes a thought experiment (am I using that term correctly?) to show time travel may not be. So why not respond to his query rather than Krash's ridiculous head shakes and your dismissal of it for irrelevancy because it doesn't address your arguments?
Really, can anyone tell us why Motor daady's postulated question does not deserve any response? better yet, could you please just show how and why he is mistaken, if he is indeed mistaken? No one has done that.

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Perhaps you have some conspiracy afoot about our moderators?
Let's here it.
The rest of your whinging, whining and diatribe is not worth addressing, suffice to say once again, that [1] Our laws of physics and GR do not forbid time travel either backwards or forwards, [2] There are a number of theoretical speculative means by which this maybe achieved, [3] Any advanced civilisation, capable of manipulating spacetime, could possibly achieve it, [4] Time travel into the past [as I have already stated] is inherently more difficult and could possibly confront more paradoxes then time travel into the future.

Perhaps also in your supreme optimism about science [tic mode on of course] you need to remember what an American President once said....
"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities and an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties"
Harry Truman:

I suppose on second thoughts, I should address a couple of the issues you seem to be burdened with.....
When I say science does not deal in proofs, I'm speaking of scientific theories that are always open for review, modification, alterations or just plain scrubbed. Nothing is 100% faitre complei, although theories do grow in certainty and confidence the more observations they make, and the more predictions that align correctly...eg: SR, GR, Evolution and Abiogenesis are damn well near certain.
So, no, no one as yet can prove time travel is possible, nor can they prove it is impossible.
Although the evidence that is listed leaves the possibility open.

Also to ask if GR can prove BigFoot is rather childish to say the least, simply because it is outside the parameters of where the theory of GR is applied.

My comment thus " I see it as excellent and straight to the obvious point."was in reference to my logical points re the laws of physics and GR.
My comment thus "That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it" was in relation to your own thoughts.

Your/baggage/agenda appears to have you at cross purposes somewhat.
Yep, we have earthly problems to overcome, and in my opinion, if we can overcome our follies, science will take us to heights we have never dreamed of.
Remember the great Lord Kelvin? Or perhaps you overlooked that section of my post.

Personally, I did not answer directly MD example because it does not apply.
But really before you start asserting who should and who should not answer questions, perhaps you need to check out posts 44 by Krash, post 45 by myself and the "conversation between Enmos [moderator] and MD from posts 56 to 69 and the warning he was given.
Perhaps now you may like to retract some of your more childish claims?

Again to reiforce my position, which has not changed:
[1] The laws of physics and GR do not forbid time travel either way.
[2] At present at this level of technology, we have no way to achieve time travel and it remains in the realms of science fiction
[3] Any sufficiently advanced civilisation, that masters spacetime manipulation or other aspects of advanced physics, may find this possible.

Those three points are undeniable facts:

19. ### Landau RoofRegistered Senior Member

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Such aggression. It's whinging because I dare to disagree with you? I just don't see how time can flow backwards. You gave the illustration of being near a black hole, but no one can say for sure if there are such things.
You completely ignore some good points I have made, such as why if these civilizations of yours are so advanced and can control your supposed worm holes are they still held back by time and distance. This is just what you all did with Motor Daddy. You cannot answer his questions so you call him a fool unworthy of an explanation. I say your ideas are pure speculation on par with Bigfoot. What you speak of may very well exists, but until we have just a small shred of evidence - what are you even talking about?
I have won though because you have backed down from:
to
I did look at the posts you mentioned and all I see is bickering and name calling, no help for Motor Dad in understanding what he has trouble conceptualizing.

20. ### krash661[MK6] transitioning scifi to realityValued Senior Member

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• This post contains inappropriate personal insults. Please try to stay calm and polite.

(shakes head) how typical. and yet you claim to know flaws in theories. amusing.

actually you know nothing , because hawking never said himself black holes do not exist.
he stated the event horizon may not exist in the sense as previously thought.

as for the rest of your unnecessary lengthily post, it's nothing but lack of comprehension rambling, nothing more.

21. ### Landau RoofRegistered Senior Member

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And what have you contributed to this thread besides arrogance? If you know something, why not explain rather than just put everyone down?

22. ### krash661[MK6] transitioning scifi to realityValued Senior Member

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it's quite amusing when you specifically stated that you do not read these post, then turn around and say another ridiculous comment.
i'm putting you down because, you're sitting here claiming flaws when you admit you do not understand any of it, then attempt to criticize paddoboy.
take your want to be physicist/intellect nonsense some where else.

23. ### Landau RoofRegistered Senior Member

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No. I'll stay right here. Thank you. When I said that I didn't read these posts I meant that I merely skimmed the ones wherein the participants only bicker and add nothing - which is to say all of your posts. I never said I don't understand anything, I was frankly admitting that it's a difficult topic for me, but that I could see inconsistencies.
Your thinking, krash, is completely consistent since you have done nothing but abuse the other posters and have offered no knowledge that you may have. Have you really got no other defense for not contributing to this discussion than that it seems to you I admitted ignorance? You can't do any better than that?
Paddoboy and I were/are discussing time and space travel. I have questioned his beliefs, and I know sometimes i can be flippant, but I hope he doesn't feel that I am criticizing him - only his notions. I might criticize your notions if you offered any. You haven't yet, have you?
So my question is what is the problem with motor daddy's thought experiment about two cars that you all refuse to answer it?
And how can Paddo be so sure there is or will ever be an advanced civilization that can 'control wormholes'? Are there not just too many unknowns to predict that? Saying ho large the universe is hardly helps. If I were to say the same thing, but that the advanced race looked like little pink ponies that lived in houses that look like giant red mushrooms with big yellow polkadots on them, would I be much farther off? I really don't see how.