# How low will the Dow Go?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by joepistole, Oct 6, 2008.

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## How low will the Dow go before recovering?

Poll closed Feb 3, 2009.

15.6%

9.4%

12.5%

15.6%

25.0%

3.1%

9.4%

0 vote(s)
0.0%

9.4%
1. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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23,053
That's simply not true. All that bullshit is the liberal propaganda.

The people who don't have good healthcare usually wait until it's too late to do anything for them, so they die. No big hospital bills at all.

And I'll remind you that the taxpayers are already paying for that big hospital even if those poor, sick people used or not.

And since you're so stubborn about this, let me also remind you that people who eat well balanced meals and have adequate shelter are also less likely to cause YOU additional money later in YOUR life. So, see, you should also be cheering for the gov to provide everyone food and housing, too!

Baron Max

3. ### 2inquisitiveThe Devil is in the detailsRegistered Senior Member

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3,181
I still don't know which bill you are referring to. There have been many bills introduced to improve the original bill. By 'no bid provisions', I assume you are referring to the provision that prevents the government from sequestering bids from pharmaceutical chains to supply drugs for regions. That provision was not to award 'big pharma' for lobbiest actions. Just the opposite, it was inserted to prevent the WalMarts and Walgreens from muscling out the small, independent local drug stores, giving the choice of where to purchase the prescriptions to the consumer. From what I have read, the pharmaceutical makers kickback a part of the drug costs to Medicare, though I don't know if that is truth or fiction like so much of the hype found on the web.

5. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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23,198
So YOU claim. I have worked with four different doctors at Johns Hopkins Hospital, in some case stood behind them in the OR while they did brain surgury or inserted electrodes made at APL'space department for edidural stimulation in some intractable pain cases.

I also have done brain surgery myself on Rhesis monkeys, when the neurosrugen was called back to hospital for emergiency. All of them complained that the cost of the emergency room is destroying hospital economics.

In JHU Hospital case it is praticularly bad as that hospital is located in a very poor part of Baltimore. (Was a high class area 150 years ago.)

Yes there is unsuported Bull Shit here - stop throwing it out as if you knew something about hospital economics.

Must leave now - may reply more and edit later

7. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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It is about the Non compete clauses which prohibits the government from negotating price with suppliers.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/gpc2007/CongResServCRSRL33782_MedicarePrice Negotiation.pdf

Last edited: Mar 18, 2009
8. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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23,053
And you didn't report any of that to the authorities? Yet here you're holding yourself out as a righteous proponent of helping the poor and under-privileged of the world???? ...LOL!

Baron Max

9. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,890
What is wrong with anything Billy T posted? It was brain surgery on a monkey...a scientific experiment. Did you read the post? Did you understand it? There was nothing immoral or illegal in what Billy T did.

10. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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Hmm, yeah, maybe I read it wrong. But if so, what the hell was he talking about then? ...that brain surgery is expensive????? And if so, what the hell does that have to do with the topic of national healthcare?

Baron Max

11. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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He was pointing out how over burdened emergency rooms are today because of non insureds using them as primary care opportunities which is very expensive.

I recenlty made an investment in a hospital, and I can tell you the write-offs for uninsureds are huge. And that is the very reason I made this investment, in expectation that expense will soon be remedied. Universal healthcare will elimate the burden of uninsured patients on hospitals. That is why I find hospitals an interesting investment at this particular time...previous to Obama I would have thought anyone mad or unwise to invest in a hospital.

Last edited: Mar 18, 2009
12. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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So now you want to overburden the primary care facilities by giving everyone free and easy access?

If things are bad now, what's it going to be like when everyone in the country can just walk into any hospital or doctor's office to get free care?

I'm still waiting, however, for an answer to one of my main points in this little discussion: "If nationally funded healthcare is good for the people, how is nationally funded free food and housing not good for the people?"

And I will remind you that people who eat well-balanced meals and have adequate shelter from the elements are more healthy than those without ...which is, of course, part and parcel of healthcare.

Baron Max

13. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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You have already been answered. Perhaps you did not read or understand. Like it or not you already have publicly funded healthcare. The training of your physicians is publicly funded. The regulation of the healthcare industry is publicly funded. Most primary medical research is publicly funded. The cost for treating the uninsured is paid by the insureds and hospitals through emergency room treatments and hospitalizations...versus cheaper treatments and disease management at alternative locations. And who is the largest single buyer of medical insurance for it'e employees and retirees today? The government of The United States. So guess what, you are already paying for it through the nose.

If we can reduce these expenses by more than half, as a tax payer, I am all for it!!! And this is just what Billy T said, though in different words.

The issue of food and housing is a totally seperate topic. And for those who cannot afford food an housing, the government does provide food and shelter for those individuals through welfare programs.

You just dont seem to get it, this is about reducing healthcare cost!!! This is about reducing the amount of money you are already paying for healthcare. If you truly are a fiscal conservative, you should be estatic about universal healthcare!

Last edited: Mar 18, 2009
14. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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If that's true, then there should be no debate and no changes. So why are we arguing about anything?

So medical schooling is free to all of the students?

It is? How so?

It is? How so?

Then why do we need to do anything if everyone is already covered with such care treatments?

Oh, so you want to put hospitals out of business by building all new "alternative" care facilities? And we all pay for it, but you're insisting that we won't be paying for it??!! Huh?

Well, I seem happy about it, so why change anything? If the gov is already doing it, why change? What's the big deal that's going on now by Obama's group of smart people?

But you've just added new facilities ....don't those cost something? And reduce what by half? If hospitals are already treating people for free, how can it get any freer than free?

And why is Obama allocating trillions of dollars for this "new" healthcare system if everything is already free now? You're confusing me more than Billy does!

No, not the federal government. Those welfare programs are all funded by local taxes, and it's all been voted on by the local taxpayers. Big fuckin' difference!

I still don't get why y'all want the gov to do all this stuff ...when y'all should know full well that the gov can't actually accomplish any-fuckin'-thing without over-budget and over-time limits.

Do y'all just like Big Brother doing everything for you? Is that it?

Baron Max

15. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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You just don't get it Baron. It is all about one thing, COST...reducing cost and improving quality of outcome as a byproduct. The problem is government is not doing it well and we need to do it better. Every other industrial country in the world does it better than we do and there just is no rational excuse to continue the current system.

We have a publicly funded system today and it is not working. We need a less expensive system with better quality. And you are just not able to understand that basic concept. Keeping the existing system is no longer an option, because it will drive the nation into bankruptcy.

Your comments remind me of the old frog in the pot where the temperature is gradually raised. And the frog dies of heat exhaustion never knowing his problem and never leaping out of the pot.

p/s And yes physician training is publicly subsidized...that does not mean students do not bear some of the cost. By the way, it is the most expensive training system in the world. Physican training needs to be a part of the discussion as other nations train physicians in 33 percent less time and at much lower costs with even better outcomes than in the US.

16. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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23,198
Baron, either you are incapable of understanding English or very stupid (possibly both - I do not want to pre judge

):

“ … I told clearly why I want the type of federal health care I described - BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER FOR ME, AND PROVIDES ME WITH A LONGER AND HEALTHER LIFE.

I want the economy of preventive care for all so I do not have big hospital bills to pay …

To hell with the guy who needs false teeth and cannot afford them. - He will not cost me or my grand children anything if he only eats soup etc. …

Reducing the number poor people going to hospital emergency rooms SAVES me money. Reducing the number of snotty-nosed, constantly-sick kids on the school bus via preventive care keeps MY grandchildren healthier. – It is simple selfish looking out for number 1 that makes me support preventive health care for ALL (and centralized birth to death health records).

How many times must I tell you this? I am not supporting this to help anyone but ME and MY family. …

Only the ideologically stubborn and stupid oppose the well demonstrated in other countries health care systems which provide very large cost reductions AND longer, healthier, life expectancies. …”

This blue text “quoted above, is part of my post 320. Thus only as an uncomprehending idiot can you say, in post 325, I am:

“… holding yourself {Billy T} out as a righteous proponent of helping the poor and under-privileged of the world???? ...” - Baron said.

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Now a note on quickly made post 320:
I did not have time to edit to correct for my mild dyslexia. It is epidural stimulation (not edidural). The dura is the tough sheaf that surrounds the spinal cord. (“dura” even means “tough” in Italian, I think.) Thus epidural electrical stimulation is sort of like direct electrical acupuncture with current passing thru the dura to reach the nerves of the spinal cord. The dura surrounded cord is inside the lumen of the backbone. The needle which can penetrate to it must be stiff and strong. (If you have ever seen the needle used to make a spinal tap, you would be shocked how big and stiff it is.) We used that large needle to slide my electrode thru and then pulled it out of the body, leaving the long thin electrode in contact with the dura.

The other end of the cable from the electrode had no connector –just loose wires. (Had to be that way so the needle was not captive on the cable.) Thus, in the sterile field of the OR the doctor, or I, had to solder the connector onto these wires AFTER needle had been totally pulled off the cable. The rechargeable (by AC magnetic field) drive unit for the electrode is typically implanted inside the abdomen. In the case of a heart stimulator, with open chest surgery, this drive unit is already attached to the electrode cable and no needle is used to place the electrodes on the heart.

Making a solder connection in the OR is not the best procedure and has no quality control, so I invented a special stiff needle which had two parts. One was U shaped in cross section and the other was a thin “blade” that closed the top of the U. One laid the cable into the U from the side, then made it captive inside by sliding the blade part into the U. (Note the top corners of the U were rolled slightly inward both to avoid needless cutting of the patient and to hold the blade in place.) Then the proceed proceeded as normal. After the electrode was in place on the dura, and the needle fully removed from the body back to the pre-attached connector (or drive unit in later cases) the blade part was pulled from the U part and the cable freed SIDEWAYS from the needle.

I am only the inventor of this special epidural electrode insertion needle. JHU/APL is the owner and it is probably “off patent” by now. I tell this to show how important it is for the physics support person to be in the OR and really understand what is done.

Now some more (only a tiny part) of my connection with the JHU hospital:
I have looked inside a lady’s abdomen on the OR table via the micro optical system of a laparoscopic procedure. (She is anesthetized and her abdomen is greatly expanded by CO2 to have room to work with the tiny tools that slip thru the small diameter tube.) The immediate impression is: My God how neat and clean we are inside!
The gas expanded abdomen void is very beautiful to see, neat and clean inside – there is no blood free and all the organs can be examined. That is why I was there – to understand a still existing problem of laparoscopic surgery: I.e. the doctor needs three or four arms. - One to hold and direct the light, one to work the tiny scissors etc., one to move organs out of the way with a blunt “stick” and one to direct the micro camera or hold the tube and guide the optics that permits him to see what he is doing. Currently, (at least 25 years ago) an advanced medical student stands behind, in contact with the doctor’s back, and supplies the extra needed hands. (Sometimes he may be on the other side of the table, but he is more in the way of nurses etc. there.)

The Doctors at JHU Hospital think we well paid physicists at JHU/APL can do anything technical. (Almost true) He wanted me to design a robot he could verbally command to replace the sleepy and bored medical student leaning on his back. That was too tough BACK THEN, and I was scared of the potential for serious trouble if verbal command was misunderstood etc. So I compromised with him and made a clamp on the end of a “goose neck” (many short rigid segments) that collectively were flexible, IFF there was a significant vacuum inside, which there was when he put his finger over a small hole. Normally the “goose neck” was a completely rigid structure as the hospital vacuum system was sucking air in thru that hole. He did not get the verbally commanded robot he asked for, but with one or more goose necks, he could hold the light and view tube in a fixed position, until he wanted to move them to another. In their illuminated field, he viewed and worked the micro scissors with his dominate hand and used the other to stabilize organs, etc.

In my 30 years at JHU/APL I spent a lot of time at the hospital, the primate lab, and the Wilmer Eye Clinic. I had a ball, did what I liked and usually only what interested me, and was paid well to do it! (Eventually, I was part of the “principle staff” – highest rank, sort of like a professor, only better paid.) I was granted one year with full pay to spend 100% of my time at the University. – I spent it in the cognitive science department – why I know a little about how the brain functions and how our perception works (but my POV is definitely not the accepted one.)* See:
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* http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.ph...6&postcount=52
for details, and evidence supporting this non-standard POV. It is a long read, about 8 pages if printed and this post is mainly focused on how my POV about preception etc. does make it possible to have "free will" and yet not be in conflict with the fact that the firing of every nerve is controlled by the laws of Physics about difusion of neurotransmitter across the synaptic gaps , etc.

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2009
17. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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23,053
Then why do we need billions of dollars to do it if it reduces costs? If the gov can do it and save money, then what's the argument in congress and across the nation all about? Ahh, yes, the trillion in taxpayer money to just get it started!!

The government never does anything well!! And throwing more money at a problem is not going to make it go away.

And what of all the horror stories about people having to wait months, even years, for a needed operation? And what of the horror stories of people turned away from care who then end up dying of something that the doctors didn't find?

And you'll notice that the people can't seek legal restitution for any bad medical practices by the doctors or hospitals? Now that's gonna' free up some doctors, ain't it? ...LOL!

Nope, sorry ...your idea that it's already being paid for and is just not working right is not going down in my book. Find some other gullible person to tell that to.

The gov wants more taxpayer money ...yet you deny it. Why is there so much talk in congress and on the streets about the additional money if it's not true?

Baron Max

18. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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Chalk it up to both. You've never once explained yourself worth a shit as I see and read it. So if you're right, then I'm stupid AND can't read English.

I'm finished responding to your on this issue, Billly. You want the gov to take care of your health and that of every citizen for free. And if you want that, why not everything else?

Baron Max

19. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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It is obvious Baron Max you have never created anything. There are no magic wands in this world. In order to create or change something it requires an investment. That is part of what is being discussed now. The other is change, which is also being discussed now.

You are comfortable in your irrational beliefs and you simply will not change. So fine. But to any rational observer of this thread, the truth and the need for healthcare reform has been well document as well as the irrational aspects of staying the course.

20. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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Don't the American taxpayers/voters have any say in it? You don't want that, do you? You want the gov to force it upon us like so many other things have been forced upon us in the past.

The American taxpayers/voters wouldn't past a national healthcare plan even if God himself came down from the Heavens to tout it to them. Socialism sucks, but more and more socialism sucks giant donkey dicks!

Baron Max

21. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Your density continues to amaze me. Where were you this last election? Did not we vote for a president and congressmen last election? Did not a majority of the VOTERS vote FOR the party and canidates promising a message of reforming healthcare with universal coverage?

The American Tax Payers have aready voted for national healthcare reform.

Do you even know the difference between socialism, communism and capitalism. Do you know what a democracy is or is not?

22. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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23,053
Then why are you even here arguing about it if it's already a done deal?

I was under the mis-understanding that this was a bill that had to pass through congress for approval. If it's already done, then ...well, that's life in the big city. We're fucked already! ...crying and whining about it won't do any good.

Baron Max

23. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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23,198
For free would be nice, but there is no free lunch (of any sort) However, there is a way, used by almost all other advanced countries to have longer and healthier lives with very significantly less cost. I will settle for what is possible, if only the US reactionarys, who can not think clearly (or don´t care about a better life with lower cost) would become knowledgable instead of idological.
"Everything Else," like free false teeth for the poor, costs me money (instead of saving me expenses) and does not give ME any benefits. This answer has been given about four times now. Is it beyond your ability to understand? :shrug: