How Far, Extremism?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Sep 10, 2011.

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Can Mitt Romney recover against Rick Perry?

Poll closed Sep 24, 2011.
  1. Yes; the official primary season will be different.

    20.0%
  2. Maybe, but only if Perry self-destructs.

    30.0%
  3. No, the Republican Party has swung too far right for Romney to win.

    30.0%
  4. Other (???)

    20.0%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,966
    Again I find myself sitting in front of MSNBC, and again Lawrence O'Donnell is making accidental points. Whether this is to his credit is its own question, but on this occasion he is considering the question of Rick Perry's repeated statements about Social Security and, today, the Texas governor's retreat from the argument.

    "Who knows more about Republican voters?" O'Donnell asks. His comparison is simple enough: there is Rick Perry, who has campaigned in Texas throughout his political life, and then there is, well, Karl Rove?

    The grandmaster of the Bush administration's political outlook clearly disagrees with Perry, even criticizing the campaign's response to the percolating controversy.

    But one thing that sticks out to me is that Karl Rove has become a voice of sanity in Republican presidential politics.

    In the early days of the Iraqi Bush Adventure, it struck me that the senior President Bush, who, even among those who supported his war effort to liberate Kuwait, was seen as handling the situation somewhat less than brilliantly, comes out looking like a reasonable politician. As former Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney explained in 1994, we did not go to Baghdad because that is not what the U.S. does.

    The GOP has pitched so far right since the 2008 election that suddenly Karl Rove can be viewed as a voice of reason. Polling shows Rick Perry leading the Republican pack, with Mitt Romney trailing by double digits; interestingly, the non-candidate Sarah Palin is polling third, according to Real Clear Politics. Ron Paul, incidentally, is running fourth, barely ahead of Bachmann.

    One question moving forward will be whether or not Romney can maintain his former de facto front-runner status. Certainly, Rick Perry has unsettled the numbers, but is Romney now simply running from second place, or will he continue to bleed in the polls? If the latter, we might wonder just how far right the GOP base will swing in this cycle. To wit, it's already to the point that Karl Rove sounds like the sane one.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    O'Donnell, Lawrence. The Last Word With Lawrence O'Donnell. MSNBC, New York. September 9, 2011. Television.

    Real Clear Politics. "2012 Republican Presidential Nomination". September 1, 2011. RealClearPolitics.com. September 9, 2011. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep.../republican_presidential_nomination-1452.html
     
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Err... Karl Rove was always the voice of sanity over there. His job is (was) to get people actually elected. The problem with him was never that he was insane or unreasonable - he's anything but - but that he's cunning, devious and amoral. Point is he got to where he was exactly because he has a keen ability to discern good politics from bad politics (in the sense of amassing power and getting elected I mean - not "good" and "bad" in a moral sense). And there's no question that Perry's nutcasery is bad politics.

    But the basic point that the Tea Party has pitched strongly away from the establishment - and all of the related quality of subsuming ideological chest-thumping to getting elected at all costs - is well taken. However, I suspect that this kind of thing is at its peak now, and maybe already subsiding. Now that the midterms and the show confrontation over the debt ceiling are done with, the Tea Party are simply regular politicians like anyone else. They may try to keep playing the "outsider" angle through next year, but it will be increasingly incoherent and tractionless.
     
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  5. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    In a normal election cycle, Romney would be the guy. He was a good soldier and backed McCain the last time around. However, he has two main problems. One is Romneycare which was used as the model for the much reviled ObamaCare. The other is that Obama is perceived as being so weak that many in the the Republican base feel that anyone could beat him and so they may as well go with the most conservative guy they can find.
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    Mitt Romney tries and tries but as yet failed to get enough people behind him to become the candidate for running for the presidency. This, I believe, is due to himself more than others who run against him.
     
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    It is only reviled by Republicans/Tea Party folk who have been misinformed by tales of death panels and of course those in the healthcare industry who benefit from the status quo.

    Is Obama perceived as being weak? I think the ones believing that are probably the same folks who believe in death panels. Fortunately for President Obama, he is intelligent, moral, sane and rational while his Republican/Tea Party rivals are not.
     
  9. superstring01 Moderator

    Messages:
    12,110
    Which really isn't the point. We're talking about the opinions of Republicans, so it stands to reason that--regardless of what we think of how they've informed the public--they are gonna' be against universal coverage.

    No. I think Obama's weak. Probably not in the same way that Republicans do, but that debate for another time.

    And, again, since we're talking about the Republican party, commenting about why (they're all gonna' hate Obama no matter what) isn't so important as knowing the simple basic fact.

    ~String
     
  10. clusteringflux Version 1. OH! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,766
    The issue is the economy. Whoever can put forth the most convincing "solution" to that problem will draw the votes ..including democrat votes.

    The degree of social extremism will mean very little if you have a good sounding plan to get people back to work...And stacking up more and more "stimulus" and debt is not going to do it..While that's been the "moderate" approach in the recent past, people are looking at these numbers and they are seeing an extremism in monetary policy that's unacceptable.
     
  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    I bet that next year, just as the election nears, the economy will be picking up rather fast because more money will then be injected into the economy as it has whenever a presidential election nears. This will help Obama to retain his control and be re-elected. If they don't and the economy still is dragging then Obama won't be around another term.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    No the issue is vision. The candidate who offers the American people the best credible vision is who will win the election. Social extremism is one thing, but that is not the issue.

    The issue faced by Republcians/Tea Partiers in 2012 is their vision of the American future. Unfortunately, their vision is more fiscal irresponsibility - more of the same stuff that got us into this mess (deregulation, unfunded tax cuts, wars, refusal to raise taxes, refusal to implement proven economic solutions, running away from science and reason, etc). It was their fiscal irresponsiblity that has created this mess and it is their fiscal continued fiscal irresponsibility that continues to plague the nation.

    Additionally, there is nothing extreme in US monetary policy. What is extreme is the fiscal mismanagement of the previous Republican/Tea Party administration and congress and the continued economic voodooism of the Republican/Tea Party House of Representatives. Republicans/Tea Partiers lack credibility.

    So while President Obama has problems with his public image, it is nothing compared to the whackoism in American right wing politics. The problem Republicans face is one of credibility.

    I think there is good reason why people like Rove are more than a bit alarmed at what they are seeing in the Republican Party. Because the intelligentsia with in the Republican Party understands that if they should attain political power, they will never be able to deliver the goods if they stick to the kooky pledges and campaign promises they espoused during the election process. They are out of control.

    If Republican win control they have two choices; follow their pledges and drive the nation into a depression or break their pledges and campaign promises and hope like Hell they can get cooperation from Democrats. The kooky talk even if it wins, will ultimately cost the Republican Party should they ever get total control of government again. And people like Rove know it.

    Should Republicans run a credible candidate in 2012 election, President Obama might have something to worry about. But given the current slate of Republican/Tea Party candidates and the current state of Republican/Tea Party politics, I just don't see that happening. Republicans/Tea Partiers cannot get the nomination with out the kooky talk and the kooky pledges. And as long they do the kooky talk walk, it is going to be very difficult for Republicans/Tea Partiers and the nation. And the smart Republicans know it. But they, like Boehner, are powerless to do anything about it.
     
  13. John T. Galt marxism is legalized hatred!! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    617
    I found it totally ironic that as I perused these boards I am thinking it is much like turning on MSNBC. We already know what they are going to say before they say it.

    I kind of liken the personalities featuring you as Rachel Maddow, and Joe as the now dismounted Keith Olbermann.

    Then ironically enough you start off your post with finding yourself sitting in front of MSNBC!!!

    Then much like MSNBC you proceed to regurgitate the same old idiocy they do.

    Yes, its the ever world saving socialist democrats against those clueless evil republicans.

    You didn't get it before I started posting, you didn't get while I was posting, and now that I don't post hardly at all; you still do not get it!!

    Really!!
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Interesting, you must have ESP. MSNBC by the way has "conservative" programs as well as "non Republican" programs which is very unlike Fox News, Clear Channel, etc. who always play the same program - Democrats/Liberals and educated folks are evil while the right wing conservative ditto heads are saint. There is no non Republican programming at Fox, Clear Channel or other Republican/Tea Party media outlets.

    Is there a point here? Instead of inventing excuses and trying to attack others, I think you time would be better spent educating yourself.

    LOL, truth and reason are not idiocy my friend.

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    You do know that MSNBC viewers have been consistently found to be better informed that folks who watch conservative news outlets like Fox News in independent studies?
    No this is you following your party line, equating all democrats as being socialist. I want to take this opportunity to repeat my challenge to you. Just how is it that Democrats are any more sociaiist than Republicans? Who was it in the very recent past that passed the largest expansion in entitlements since the creation of Medicare some 50 years ago? Can you say Republicans? Now I will grant you Republicans were not motivated to enhance American standard of living when they past Medicare Part D. They were lining the pockets of their special interest backers at the expense of future American tax payers. But the effect was and remains a huge expansion of "socialism".

    It is really hard to get insanity. And that is the problem the Republican Party now faces. The right wing extremists in the party have driven the party to such bizzare positions it is now causing Republican leadership some concern (e.g. Carl Rove).
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2011
  15. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    When the liberals are in office, they'll raise your taxes.

    When the conservatives are in office, they'll cut your services.

    The only people that really benefit, are the ones in control, the ones that determine who the people choose to elect, the media and the opinion makers, the elites. They prefer to have both parties rule the country periodically, that way the can put the squeeze on from both sides. . . raise taxes and try to cut serves.

    Or, destroy the country by doing the reverse, endless spending and tax cuts. Either way, we're all screwed.

    No party is willing try something different by switching these combinations, i.e. cut spending and raise taxes, or cut taxes and increase services. AND THIS, is why things don't get any better.

    Right now, the conservatives just want someone who will slash the government back to a smaller size. Who ever looks like they will do that the most, and looks like they are most capable of getting that job done, will get the nomination.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Only when needed, Republicans also have in the past raised taxes as well. Here is what really bothers me, Republicans spent like crazy while they were in total control of all branches of government. And now the want to refuse to pay the bills they incurred.
    That is certianly true of the current crop of Republicans/Tea Partiers.
    I am not a conspiracy bug. But it is true that there is a conglomeration of special interests in Washington that do use and abuse government at the expense of the tax payers. And at the moment, Republicans are extremely whacky and radical. The only voice of reason at this moment is the Democratic Party. As the American right wing has become more extreme, Democrats have become more centerists. Unfortunately the US political system is a choice between party a and party b. Many people from multiparty systems (parliamentary systems) just have no clue on American politics.
     
  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    33,264
    It takes BOTH parties to pass any legislation in most cases so it's BOTH parties that are to blame not just one or the other.

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  18. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    Of course. . . . what ever they say. . . .

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  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    No when you have majorities in the House, Senate and the president as the Republicans did, you don't need both parties to pass legislation. Most Democrats voted against Medicare Part D. And those very same Democrats tried to reverse out the most expensive portions of the bill. It was not until Democrats controlled both houses and the presidency that they were able to nullify the special sweet heart deals in Medicare Party D.

    So your well they did it too argument just does not bear any merrit.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Unfortunately that is all too true in some circles of American politics. I suppose that is why they proudly refer to themselves as "ditto heads" and why their leader has taught his followers that they should not have to think or inform themselves to know the correct answer to any issue.
     
  21. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    2,119
    It has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. It has to do with understanding the American political and economic system. The biggest sectors of the economy are health care, the financial sector, and the military industrial establishment. The political players that influence and regulate the financial sector of the economy is the federal reserve. Those men and their interests remained unchanged when the democrats took over, and, due to their financial contributions, will remain no matter who take over or stays in office after the next election. As far as the military industrial establishment? The same. Mr. Obama didn't even bother to change the Secretary of Defense when he took over.

    As regards to Health Care? Forget about it. The over haul was passed under nefarious circumstances at best. The majority of the population didn't like the legislation. They had to rewrite the rules and break all traditions to get it passed. It will NEVER be rescinded. If this yahoo Rick Perry becomes the Republican Nominee, he will never get elected, the press will make sure of that. We have seen enough electoral shenanigans in the past several elections to understand that the establishment gets what it wants, and what the government wants is a huge slice of the financial windfall, and a gargantuan amount of control over people's personal lives. And if on the off chance that he were elected, there would never be enough votes to prevail in cutting off the funding and short circuiting this bureaucracy that was put into place.

    It isn't a conspiracy, it is out in the open. It is made up of very powerful players, very financially well off high placed people that control the media, think tanks, and private organizations that influence how you think, what the opinion makers report, and even what issues are going to be discussed. The real issues that actually affect the lives and the destiny of this country aren't even discussed. REAL choice is not even an option.

    Click on any of the following images for more facts.

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    Monetary Policy
     
  22. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    . . . ditto head. I like that. How apt. Perhaps you should think to change your handle/avitar to that. . . MSNBC DITTO HEAD? Much more descriptive than joepistole don't you think?

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  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, show me a group of non Republicans who proudly refer to themselves as "ditto heads" or something similar.

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    Apparently your understanding of politics is rather shallow. Democrats/non Republicans have a very diversified point of view. And that has traditionally been a problem for them.
     

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