How do you know that it was Jesus who died on the cross?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by wynn, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Arioch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,274
    @MOM --

    Care to share these verifications with us, because I've looked extensively and not found a single one.

    Well, except for the Garden of Eden, and the flood, and the Kingdom of David, and the lives of the prophets, and Herod's slaughter, and the resurrection of Jesus. You know, except for those theologically vital stories. Those have remained unverified since they cropped up.

    Oh yes, because everything on the internet is so reliable. I already know that you don't know how to fact check or verify sources, so what makes you think that your internet sources are valid sources? You've already displayed a truly breathtaking ignorance of human nature and history(claiming that forty years is too quick of a legend to form, please), given such displays of ignorance, why should we trust your sources?

    As to your link. The article you cite has no reputable sources. Nothing peer reviewed and virtually everything privately published. That is not a valid source. Oh, and the "takes less faith" bit was precious in a naive and childlike way. It was cute but definitely not true. Believing in something with no evidence, and you have no evidence, always takes the same kind of faith. In fact, since you're so up on faith and often very down on science, perhaps you should just stick to faith. You're much better at that than you are at science.

    1. No, they don't.

    2. Even if they did this would not establish your religion's claims of the divinity of Christ.

    3. Josephus is demonstrably not a contemporaneous source, and he's the "earliest extrabiblical" mention of Jesus.

    Three major faults, and you're not going to address any of them, you're merely going to dismiss them without giving any justification.

    @arauca --

    How many times do we have to go over this? Arguing that popular testimony is evidence is nothing more than an argumentum ad populum and an argument from verbosity. Two logical fallacies in one sentence, good job.
     
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm the evidence that he didn't.
    And that Mars is really made of compressed pixies.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  5. Austin Registered Member

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    There are several credible non-biblical sources of Christ's existence: thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

    To even question His existence shows your cavalier attitude which will be your downfall.

    The gospel record is not a debate as most of you are exhibiting. Its a DECLARATION. If you choose to ignore/deny it, its meaning, and the consequences of such, that is your own business. If you accept it, all the better, but you better stick to the narrow path as many have strayed.
     
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  7. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    Troll Alert!!!
     
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Oops, second-hand (and post-fact) accounts.

    Supposition.

    Error! It's a declaration? By whom? On what authority? With what supporting evidence?

    Yeah, yeah.
     
  9. arauca Banned Banned

    Messages:
    4,564


    Let me ask you . What kind of evidence would you like have to accept .
    Even I don't give a dam if you believe or not. I just want to understand you view

    Please describe
     
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    18,951
    You have claimed that YOU are evidence.
    Please explain how this is so.
     
  11. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    1,538
    Of course. He is his brother..after all...
     
  12. arauca Banned Banned

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    4,564

    I told you I am the evidence and you are saying no . I am real , how can you no.

    Can you disprove me that I am not real I don't exist .
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,951
    Wrong. I'm asking HOW you are evidence.

    I'll grant that YOU exist. But how is this EVIDENCE for the factual existence of Jesus?
     
  14. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    1,538
    Maybe, he thinks him being a Christian proves Jesus' existence..hard nut..I know.
     
  15. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Does that mean that Tom Cruise's existence proves Scientology is correct?

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    Oh, and welcome back PTP.
     
  16. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    1,538
    Hmm...more like it proves that the scientology cult..exists.

    Thank you thank you :worship:


    Maybe Zeus exists, too. At least sometimes I see a few lightnings.
     
  17. markl323 Registered Senior Member

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    166
    "resurrection" has a better chance of working if the person never died in the first place.
     
  18. Kapyong Writer Registered Senior Member

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    159
    Gday,

    What does that have to do with Jesus himself existing?

    The Romans ALSO banned the priests of Attis from castrating themselves - does that prove Attis really existed?
    Of course not.

    Countries nowadays have banned Scientology - does that prove Xenu existed?
    Of course not.

    How silly.


    There are NO eye-witness accounts, as I showed on the other thread :
    "Who claimed to have personally met a historical Jesus"
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=110311
    If YOU think there were eye-witnesses to Jesus, please show us the evidence.


    An eye-witness account of Jesus would help a GREAT DEAL!

    What a pity there is NOT ONE such eye-witness account.


    Kapyong
     
  19. Kapyong Writer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    159
    Gday,

    You shouldn't just BELIEVE at all.
    You should check the facts and see if I was accurate.
    Did you do that ?

    Abraham and David almost certainly were MYTHS.
    Herod almost certainly existed.

    For the usual reason -
    Because of the EVIDENCE or lack thereof.


    Kapyong
     
  20. Kapyong Writer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    159
    Gday,

    I don't believe Jesus existed.

    I gave lengthy posts explaining why not.

    Including a detailed examination of your alleged external evidence for Jesus - will you be addressing that ?


    Kapyong
     
  21. Arioch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,274
    @Kapyong --

    Nope. MOM doesn't really "address" things, he mostly just ignores them or outright dismisses them.
     
  22. Kapyong Writer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    159
    Gday,

    No, we CONCLUDE that Caesar existed because of vast amount of EVIDENCE.

    But believers can always be trusted with word-games to turn this into 'belief' and 'faith'. As if faith in a supernatural legend is just as good as mountains of historical and archeological evidence for a real person. As if all 'beliefs' are 'equally valid' (they love to say their beliefs are 'valid' as if that means 'true'.)


    Anyway - let's CHECK the evidence for Jesus vs Augustus Caesar :


    Evidence - Jesus compared with Augustus

    Books :
    We have books written by Augustus himself e.g. the "Res Gestae Divi Augusti".
    Nothing by Jesus

    History:
    Several contemporary writers, and numerous later ones, record Augustus' actions.
    There is NO contemporary historical evidence for Jesus.

    Statues :
    We have about TWO DOZEN statues of Augustus made in his life, showing what he looked like, and even how he changed over the years.
    Nothing for Jesus. No Christian even knows what he looked like.

    Family:
    We have hard and contemporary historical evidence for Augustus family.
    No details are know about Jesus. None of the people in the Gospels left ANY records in history. NOT ONE Christian even mentions meeting Joseph or Mary.

    Archeology :
    We have buildings made by Augustus - still standing.
    Nothing for Jesus - not one single artifact.

    Eye-witness accounts :
    We have several contemporary eye-witness evidence for Augustus (e.g. Nicolaus and Horace.)
    There are NO eye-witness accounts of Jesus. No Christian ever claimed to have met Jesus (except the late forgery 2 Peter.)

    Birth date :
    We have historical evidence for Augustus' birth date - to the DAY (23rd Sept, 63BCE)
    Jesus birthdate is unknown - the evidence varies by YEARS. The 25th December date has nothing to do with history, it was decided centuries after the alleged Jesus.

    Death date :
    We have historical evidence for Augustus death - to the DAY (August 19, 14CE)
    Jesus death date is unknown - guesses vary by YEARS, the actual date cannot be determined because the sources conflict.

    Tomb :
    The original tomb of Augustus is still known to this day. A historical place.
    Jesus original tomb is UNKNOWN - but FIVE different places claim it (Calvary, Golgotha, Talpiot, Japan, Kashmir.) Myths and legends.

    Coins:
    We have 100s of coins made during Augustus' life, noting his various historical actions, and even showing how he aged over the years.
    Nothing like that for Jesus. No-one ever claimed to have met Jesus. No-one knows what he looked like.


    The evidence for Jesus is a few religiuous books written long after the alleged events by unknown persons who never met Jesus.

    The evidence for Augustus is a mountain of hard and contemporary historical and archeological evidence.


    But believers still pretend the evidence is the same!
    Incredible!


    Kapyong
     
  23. Kapyong Writer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    159
    Gday,

    Mate - WHY are you doing this?

    What does the historicity of these persons have ANYTHING to do with Jesus existing?

    Is this the ol' "if Jesus didn't exist, then NO-ONE existed" dodge?

    Because that is indeed just a silly dodge.
    The existence of various persons in history depends on the evidence!

    When people doubt Socrates - do you care?
    When people doubt the existence of Hercules - do you respond with these questions?

    The historicity of Jesus depends on the EVIDENCE of Jesus.
    Like the historicity of Socrates depends on the EVIDENCE of Socrates.

    Different beings have DIFFERENT levels of confidence - but you seem to be playing the ALL or NOTHING card?

    Adam - certainly myth
    Abraham - almost certainly myth
    David - probably myth
    Jesus - possibly myth
    William Tell - probably myth
    Mohamed - almost certainly historical
    Bahai Ulah - certainly historical.

    The existence of one has NOTHING to do withe the others.

    So please - if you want to discuss the histority of Jesus, let's talk about the evidence for JESUS. Not some OTHER people.


    Kapyong
     

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