How do these definitions sit with you? (with poll)

How do these definitions sit with you?
Just curious how these things appeal or don't appeal to people in general ...

 

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It was interesting, I couldn't find agreement with any of them.

 

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seriously - I would have thought these would have struck something even amongst our predominantly atheistic community here

Real modesty is to be disgusted with improper activities

one who is enriched with good qualities is actually said to be rich

and one who is unsatisfied in life is actually poor

 

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Renunciation, wealth and fame?
Don't sit too well together.
And look up the word "opulence", it relates to wealth only usually.

Assuming there is a god.

Assuming there is a soul.

Rubbish.
What's an "improper activity"?

Detachment is part of beauty?
How so?

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Assuming there's more than type of happiness.

Getting further off-track.

So wisdom doesn't bring happiness?

Who is this god guy?

Denying what we are (physical beings) isn't going to do much for ourselves is it?

ACTUAL heaven?
Define goodness.

And the ignorant can't be educated?
You were in hell at the age of 3? 4?

This god guy keeps poking his nose in.
And if our home is the human body why not gratify our senses?

Nope, someone with a lot of money is said to be rich.

Different dictionary from everyone else?

Control your senses?
Must...work...on...x...ray...vision.

Nope, just not attached.

Unless, of, course, good and bad are all around...
Oh wait, if I keep my eyes shut does that make me a better person?

The dead have done that - is dead a "quality" worth pursuing?

 

In a very abstract sense, I suppose, but not meaning some kind of regimen and humility and being good all time or feeling that one's personal will and desire is somehow against God.

That just sounds horrible. But I don't know what you mean by improper activities. Screaming 'nigger' or beating a child are certainly disgusting activities but I can't see where modesty comes in.

No. My mother is beautiful and she is very attached to me. As one example amongst billions.

'Implicated' ??? So it's not the searching, it's if someone implicates you??? In any case no. Sexual pleasure is as much a part of God as anything else.

 

:wtf:

 

Being dead means you are beyond good and evil.
So by LG's logic being dead is something to aspire to.

 

Strange logic there.

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I specialise in strange logic

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If you are beyond good and evil then you can't be interacting with the world, you might as well be dead.

 

:roflmao:

 

this seems like stuff straight out of the Dhammapada

 

A wretched person is one who sees controlling parts of him or herself as a good goal. One who aspires to dominate themselves like dictators dominate other people. One who does on the inside the very things they often dislike most about what other people do on the outside.

Being a 'controller' is not necessarily a positive thing. And it would be good for most guys (and gals, but more the guys) to know that if someone calls you a controller they are probably not feeling great about it. And for good reason. Often those who control themselves judge others for not controlling themselves. This superiority can be isolating. But it's certainly a choice.

You have referred to 'wrong' paths, to being disgusted as a positive thing, and clearly see desire for sex as bad. You may use other words, but your assertions (or these assertions if they are not yours) are setting up a rather strict set of 'good and bad'. It is just another set of good and bad. And not a very honest one.

I doubt it, but it is so abstract I am not sure it means anything.

 

There is a great deal of distaste for life and a yearning to be more deathlike in this kind of philosophy. You've hit the nail on the head. They cannot see how this is a philosophy of self-hatred. Desire, emotions, reacting negatively, sexual desire are all seen as bad. Anti-life and it's really sad how many have gone down this road.

 

"Actual opulence is My own nature as the Personality of Godhead, through which I exhibit the six unlimited opulences. The supreme gain in life is devotional service to Me, and actual education is nullifying the false perception of duality within the soul. Real modesty is to be disgusted with improper activities, and beauty is to possess good qualities such as detachment. Real happiness is to transcend material happiness and unhappiness, and real misery is to be implicated in searching for sex pleasure. A wise man is one who knows the process of freedom from bondage, and a fool is one who identifies with his material body and mind. The real path in life is that which leads to Me, and the wrong path is sense gratification, by which consciousness is bewildered. Actual heaven is the predominance of the mode of goodness, whereas hell is the predominance of ignorance. I am everyone's true friend, acting as the spiritual master of the entire universe, and one's home is the human body. My dear friend Uddhava, one who is enriched with good qualities is actually said to be rich, and one who is unsatisfied in life is actually poor. A wretched person is one who cannot control his senses, whereas one who is not attached to sense gratification is a real controller. One who attaches himself to sense gratification is the opposite, a slave. Thus, Uddhava, I have elucidated all of the matters about which you inquired. There is no need for a more elaborate description of these good and bad qualities, since to constantly see good and bad is itself a bad quality. The best quality is to transcend material good and evil" - Krishna (SB 11.19.40-45)

 

Oli

therefore amongst two equivalently wealthy people, the greater would be the one who wouldn’t commit suicide if they lost it all (to be renounced from something doesn’t mean that one abhors something – it means that one can continue undisturbed either in its presence or absence)
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There’s probably enough threads on the religion forum that discuss this
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You don’t have a conception of what is proper?
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real beauty lies in character
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there are several types of happiness, but in short they boil down to two varieties
one type involves further suffering down the track
another type remains free from such suffering
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I take it you are a bachelor
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identifying with the body (which is temporary and subject to various diseases) and the mind (which is constantly assailed by miseries for every pleasure conceived in the form of unlimited dualities, eg pleasure/pain, hot/cold etc) brings happiness?
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taking what one requires to live is perfectly sound (and even recommended) – taking more than what one requires, which is the frequent expedition of sense gratification, certainly destroys the physical nature of ourselves
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refers to sattva-guna – in short, the state of being that enables one to see things as they actually are (ie free from selfishness, lethargy, envy, lust etc and all the other elements that frequently interfere with our perception)
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if they can, ignorance won’t predominate I guess

there are more predominately ignorant states of ignorance than merely being 3 or 4 years old
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make of it what you will ....

because that’s the easiest way to lose the human form of life and enter into the animal species
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yes, that’s the common understanding .... never mind how neurotic they are
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depends whether the point of “wealth” is for deriving satisfaction or not
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you know – tongue, stomach, etc
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if you can’t control yourself (meaning your senses) whatever position of power one may hold is a farce
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all around in the realm of duality (ie material world) yes

no, because if one remains in ignorance one will continue to see duality, regardless whether one keeps their eyes open or closed

assuming that after death transcendence is automatic

 

“ Grantywanty

why would one hold one’s expression of regimen/humility/being good all the time/feeling that one’s will is against god as impediments/impediments to the performance of service?
In other words doesn’t the notion of service imply that you simply do what is required and suspend one’s personal likes/dislikes?



“

hrih (modesty) is sometimes translated as shyness – in other words the ability to feel not only embarrassment about improper activities but disgust is what is real modesty (If you were totally disgusted by the notion of beating an infant, you wouldn’t do it and you wouldn’t stand to see others do it)
“

if your mother beat you up and swore at you constantly would you describe her as beautiful?
In other words real beauty is perceived as the possession of good qualities
(as for attachment, that is the prime cause of bad qualities – for instance if your mother was so attached to you that she forbade you to leave the house and locked you in the room (even though you are 33), you would probably insist that she display a bit of detachment
“

lol – I thought this one would draw a few raised eyebrows
Its quite simple really – the moment you begin on the path of sex pleasure is the moment you are faced with the impossible task of making your body perfect (at least advertisers know that sex sells), what to speak of the big mental, financial and physical sacrifice of household life which takes up a large portion of our lives

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so what does that make a serial rapist?

actually its commonly seen that those who go about trying to dominate others are the one’s who are least in control of themselves

I’ve read this eight times and I can’t make sense of it
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being in control, particularly in regard to the self (which is what’s referenced) is a sane thing – people often get in to all sorts of emotional, legal and financial difficulties because they are unable to control themselves

there are all types of etiquette for how and when judgment should be offered – but in short if an uncontrolled person is in the habit of affecting things with their uncontrolled habits, a judgment is usually warranted

certainly explains why rapists (ie people who are uncontrolled) are put into isolation (ie jail)
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the issue is that transcendence is ultimately not arrived at through discerning the dualities of the material world – so at a certain point one must abandon duality

“ The best quality is to transcend material good and evil ”
I doubt it, but it is so abstract I am not sure it means anything.

actually its about how to NOT make life distasteful – how many people commit suicide because of getting chewed up by desire, emotions and sex?

– if you blindly accept that these things are “all good” or any which way you go about them is as good as any other, you are setting yourself up for some rather harsh and unnecessary experiences in life

 

I don't know what to say. Maybe its too subjective / too little value to register on the atheist radar?

 

Here what I see happening between us:

You make a general rule that all seeking after sexual desire is bad.
I say this general rule is not true.
You think I then need to defend specific examples of a certain very small % of the populations expression of this seeking.
But you see it is you who want to make a general rule.

Belief in God, for example, has some rather horrible examples out there. Will you give up your belief or service to God because of the acts of really quite a large number of 'servants of God'?

I do not have to say that all sexual acts are loving. I do know, absolutely, that many sexual acts are, as is the desire that led to them, sometimes really quite out of control. I am speaking from direct personal experience. I have also seen how control can evolve into a loss of control over time in my life and other lives, both in relation to emotions and sexual desire and I have seen how wonderful this has been for some people - who are now really quite 'out of control'. That's why I know your general rules are wrong and your assumptions about everyone becoming a dominator or a rapist are wrong and come from limited experience. I once bought some of that religious shit also. If you are certain you would become a rapist if you fully accepted your sexual feelings, well, by all means, control yourself. I can't be sure about you. But I can be sure that you general rules do not fit everyone and should not be applied by everyone, since many of us can be loving and out of control, even when it comes to expressing the full range of emotions and desires.

Your idea flits in the air like an ephemeral ghost and does not touch my life (anymore) but such ideas have done untold damage to people through many, many lifetimes. It's time for these judgements to end.

(rapists by the way are very self controlled. Rather than expressing anger, they act it out. They strictly control their fear and feelings of rejection. They avoid feelings of their own unworthiness and blame women for the tense internal ecology they have to maintain not to feel their own fears there. These are very rigid individuals. Not people who can express a wide range of emotions in front of loved ones or strangers. they are precisely the opposite of people who have worked to undo the training we have all gotten in controlling our emotions and desires. Often what separates them from other people who are very rigid is that they suffered physical, sexual or extreme emotional abuse themselves.)

They are the boogymen in the theories you use to scare yourself into being a 'good' boy. Boogeymen exist, sure, but there are other possibilities. A philosophy that assumes otherwise is based on unfelt fear.

 

Meh, wrong dictionary:

If one has renounced wealth by definition you cannot have wealth.

And still no definitive answer.

Sure: does it match yours?

Detachment is part of character that shows beauty?
Or just disdain?

Theoretically.

Divorced, and the point?

If I am not my body and mind what and where am I?

And of course, it's impossible to gratify the senses with just what one requires to live?
Nonsense.

Ah, speculation.

QED.

Granted, but it doesn't answer the question.
Are children in hell?

I do.
God is absent as far as I can see.

Speculation.

I've only ever known one really rich guy (beside myself).
Both of us were totally carefree.

Nope, depends on satisfaction.

Last I heard tongue and stomach weren't senses.

Really? How so, seriously.

Assuming there is any other world.

Duality exists - you're stuck with it.
Seeing it means you're seeing what's there - it doesn't make you a bad person.

Nope: assuming you're DEAD.
Once dead you're beyond good and evil.