How did they remove the nails ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ted Grant II, May 14, 2017.

  1. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    188
    Flagellation at the hands of the Romans is mentioned in three of the four canonical Gospels. Also remember that he wore a crown of thorns, which, one assumes, also caused injury.
    As he was being marched to the place of execution Jesus was whipped until he collapsed. Jesus also had a spear thrust in his side and nails piercing his limbs.

    Doubting Thomas was able, days later, to feel the piercings in his hands (!) and place his hand in the opening in the side of Jesus (small cut?).

    Even if the blood had stopped flowing, he would obviously have been covered with sticky blood and I suspect the floor below the cross would have been pretty messy too; blood mixed with the mud that had been trampled on by the team of Romans. I wonder why they drew lots and divided his dirty, blood stained clothes ? It all seems rather implausible.

    Given all the time and effort required for the treatment leading up to and including the crucifixion of the three "criminals", I can't imagined the Romans would have been too keen to get anybody down again for any reason, let alone to allow some Jewish guy to do it, who just happened to turn up a couple of hours later.

    The point of crucifixion, as opposed to any simple method, such as beheading, was to humiliate the criminal and terrify on-lookers for days and weeks later.
    Taking him down a couple of hours after putting him up would defeat the main purpose of the method and what would be the point?

    I know the story tellers give reasons, but are they credible?
    Did the Romans respect the religious notions of the defeated locals ?
    The Romans had their own religion and thought the Jews were pagans.

    The only reason Jesus was taken down ( in the story) is that he had to come back to life and walk around.
    He couldn't do that whilst nailed to the cross.

    The only person who knew that he was going to come back to life was the first author of the myth (Paul ?).
    I know there were several authors later, but they used the first story when composing their own.

    There are no contemporary sources of the events in the life of Jesus, so historians, generally do not think the contradictory gospels are reliable sources.
    We also know that "Mark", the first full account, was modified by Christians to include the post crucifixion events.
    The later gospel writers, none of whom ever met Jesus, embellished the yarn further, for example to include invented genealogies.
     
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  3. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    As a trained carpenter , with much experience of nails, wood and heavy weights, I believe that Jesus was actually held up by ropes.
    The reasons for nails in addition to ropes, are very simple.
    They can't be removed without causing much damage to the body and the criminal cannot struggle free.
    Once he's up, he stays up.
     
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  5. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Why?
     
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  7. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Yes.
    Non-believing professional historians are more likely to give an accurate account of what probably happened, than believers who are keen to promote their faith.
     
  8. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Who is Dave ?
     
  9. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    188
    First, the Romans were in charge and had slaves, so I suspect the expense was born by the conquered pagans.
    Second, why bother taking down the cross, having just put it up ?
    If you built a house, would you knock it down two hours later ?
    Third, the "necessary gear" was rope, hammers and wedges.
    I doubt it included a modern nail removing device.
     
  10. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    188
    What friends and relatives ?
    We are told that some women watched from afar.
    All the disciples had fled, fearing a similar fate.
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    A contributor to this thread.
     
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    6,636
    His mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, Mary Magdalene and "the disciple whom he loved" are all explicitly mentioned in St John's gospel. And someone , presumably a friend or relative, got hold of Joseph of Arimathea, if he wasn't actually at Golgotha himself.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

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    4,113
    the key word is 'criminal'. with the deception in nature, it's the criminals who also punished the innocent. they can dream up charges and even project their own guilt onto another. sometimes it's blatant/direct if they have zero conscience. it's never just one way. it's who has the power and there are those who abuse that power to obscene levels. history is full of such examples.

    that's the thing about sociopaths is they will criminalize those who are the victims and twist it around, just the same.
     
  14. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    3,731
    Nooooo

    Really?

    On the IMPLAUSIBLE scale with

    0 being totally believable and

    2,000,000 being a load of bollocks

    would you put the crucifixion?

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  15. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Because there wasn't room for an infinite number of corpses.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    Pretty sure the story goes that they were all shocked when they went to the tomb and he was no longer there. But Jesus had predicted his execution and resurrection. Whether his disciples believed him fully, no one knows. There is a lot of conjecture on whether he actually did predict the extent of it. The shock of his mother, aunt and the other dude who went to his tomb to anoint his body kind of says that they expected his body to be there and not somewhere else, ie, not resurrected.

    I don't know about that. I think the story would have been more interesting if he 'rose' while nailed to the cross and started singing "Always look on the bright side of life!"..

    Ermm no.

    Paul came after Jesus. Not during.

    The only person who predicted it before was Jesus.

    The whole story, well, to be exact, all religious text are modified stories that have been changed and added on and subtracted to suit a particular narrative at any given time.

    Why do you think the Romans would care about damaging his body?

    The documented practice of Romans was to use nails and sometimes they used both. Sometimes they even nailed people upside down, just for kicks. More often than not, the bodies remained nailed up or tied up, for wildlife to feast on.

    But sometimes they took the body down if the relatives of the deceased obtained permission to do so. Which is supposedly what happened this time.

    At some point, it would become risky, depending on where the bodies were crucified. Sometimes they did not, but sometimes, they would. There were no hard and fast rules about it. They were Romans. They did as they pleased when they pleased.

    I think all sides would argue that the other had an agenda of some sort.

    To wit, even non-believing professions would have to refer to the religious texts first and foremost and then work from there, the same for religious scholars.

    Dave's not here....

    Who knows..

    And the cross had been used. It could be taken down for the next dude and again, the family would have received permission to get him down. And they didn't just put it up. He'd been up there for a while. He didn't die immediately.

    A veritable stick in the ground is not a house.

    And?

    Good grief, they'd just need a wedge of some sort, possibly even a sword to leverage the nails out, or they probably just ripped the nails through his limbs.

    His mother, Mary Magdalene, Mary of Clopas, various Jewish priests, his disciples, Joseph of Arimathea, and a few other people whose names escape me. Not to mention the throng of people who came to watch the spectacle.

    His disciples did not flee. They were there and it is they who wrote the gospels describing the whole thing.

    It's amazing how all of this stuck from childhood religious classes...
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,460
    That doesn't add up. If they were accelerating death, why wait until the last minute to break legs? That doesn't even seem like a good way to kill quickly - with armed soldiers right there, an unnecessary complication and delay. And it's something one would do before taking the condemned down, a while before surely. So how was Jesus "found" to be dead "already"? They climb up and take a pulse before breaking legs?
    The entire story is odd, fishy.
     
  18. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Or as one poster seems to think chickeny

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  19. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Well, crucifixion was in principle meant to be a lingering death, as a brutal deterrent, presumably. BUT according to the story the local occupying Roman government paid a bit of deference to local custom, so on this occasion, with Passover coming up, they cut short the punishment by breaking the legs of those still alive, so they could get the grisly exhibits taken down, presumably before sunset, which is when the Jewish sabbath starts. Jesus looked dead already, so someone checked with a spear and decided - presumably by means of the amount and nature of what came out (colour? watery composition? small amount? lack of force with which it came out?), - he was gone, so they didn't bother. I don't see why this looks so difficult.
     
  20. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    3,252
    Unfortunately you weren't there to tell them. They should have an oscilloscope to monitor the pulse rate .
    What do you think if a body would slump because the muscle tone is not there. I suppose there were also people intelligent to establish death because of experiences . Pilatus questioned and sent an official to verify if the man was death, Would it not reasonable to send an officer , which probable had experience in establishing the condition.
     
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Just in TV program QI Series 10 EP 7 Incomprehensible

    Seems like there are 15 churches which are claiming to have the relic of Jesus

    His foreskin

    And even more weird there was a liberian to a pope who wrote a paper about the rings of Saturn being the foreskin of Jesus

    Who says religion is ridiculous?

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  22. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ^^^
    FORESKIN in the KJV Bible

    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=foreskin&bsec=Z&order=

    <>
     
  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    13,195
    Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied, nailed, or otherwise attached [1] to a large wooden beam and left to hang for several days until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.[2][3] It is principally known from classical antiquity, but remains in occasional use in some countries.

    Crucifixion was most often performed to dissuade its witnesses from perpetrating similar (usually particularly heinous) crimes. Victims were sometimes left on display after death as a warning to any other potential criminals. Crucifixion was usually intended to provide a death that was particularly slow, painful (hence the term excruciating, literally "out of crucifying"), gruesome, humiliating, and public, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal. Crucifixion methods varied considerably with location and time period.
    The Greek and Latin words corresponding to "crucifixion" applied to many different forms of painful execution, from impaling on a stake to affixing to a tree, to an upright pole (a crux simplex) or to a combination of an upright (in Latin, stipes) and a crossbeam (in Latin, patibulum).[14]
    In some cases, the condemned was forced to carry the crossbeam to the place of execution. A whole cross would weigh well over 135 kg (300 lb), but the crossbeam would not be quite as burdensome, weighing around 45 kg (100 lb).[15] The Roman historian Tacitus records that the city of Rome had a specific place for carrying out executions, situated outside the Esquiline Gate,[16] and had a specific area reserved for the execution of slaves by crucifixion.[17] Upright posts would presumably be fixed permanently in that place, and the crossbeam, with the condemned person perhaps already nailed to it, would then be attached to the post.
    The person executed may have been attached to the cross by rope, though nails and other sharp materials are mentioned in a passage by the Judean historian Josephus, where he states that at the Siege of Jerusalem (70), "the soldiers out of rage and hatred, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest."[18] Objects used in the crucifixion of criminals, such as nails, were sought as amulets with perceived medicinal qualities.[19]
    While a crucifixion was an execution, it was also a humiliation, by making the condemned as vulnerable as possible. Although artists have traditionally depicted the figure on a cross with a loin cloth or a covering of the genitals, the person being crucified was usually stripped naked. Writings by Seneca the Younger state some victims suffered a stick forced upwards through their groin.[20][21] Despite its frequent use by the Romans, the horrors of crucifixion did not escape mention by some of their eminent orators. Cicero for example, described crucifixion as "a most cruel and disgusting punishment",[22] and suggested that "the very mention of the cross should be far removed not only from a Roman citizen's body, but from his mind, his eyes, his ears."[23]
    Frequently, the legs of the person executed were broken or shattered with an iron club, an act called crurifragium, which was also frequently applied without crucifixion to slaves.[24] This act hastened the death of the person but was also meant to deter those who observed the crucifixion from committing offenses.
    The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. A literature review by Maslen and Mitchell[44] identified scholarly support for several possible causes of death: cardiac rupture,[45] heart failure,[46] hypovolemic shock,[47] acidosis,[48] asphyxia,[49] arrhythmia,[50] and pulmonary embolism.[51] Death could result from any combination of those factors or from other causes, including sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that often preceded crucifixion, eventual dehydration, or animal predation.[52][53]
    A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation.[54] He wrote that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Some scholars, including Frederick Zugibe, posit other causes of death. Zugibe suspended test subjects with their arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical. The test subjects had no difficulty breathing during experiments, but did suffer rapidly increasing pain,[55][56] which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death. However, Zugibe's positioning of the test subjects' feet are not supported by any archaeological or historical evidence.[57]
    Survival
    Since death does not follow immediately on crucifixion, survival after a short period of crucifixion is possible, as in the case of those who choose each year as a devotional practice to be non-lethally crucified.
    There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted. Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[58] Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

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