I still don't get how Jesus saved us. No one has offered a logical explanation yet as to how Jesus, the character in the Bible, saved humanity. Here are some reasons I've heard: 1) Jesus gave everyone good principles to follow and set the example - Great. Couldn't God have come down himself in the form of a pillar of a cloud or a bolt of lightning and simply tell 12 people about these principles. Then these twelve people could write a Gospel about how God came down as a pillar of a cloud and told them the correct way to live (to live by the Spirit.) 2) Because of Jesus, now God can forgive us - This one makes no sense to me at all. Everyone knows Jesus was incapable of sinning, so his life shouldn't have impressed God so that God now said: "Ok. Because Jesus (I) lived a sinless life and did my will, now I'll forgive everyone and now you can go to heaven." I'm not seeing it. I don't see why a Jesus figure is necessary in any case. If God is all powerful and all knowing, he shouldn't need Jesus to forgive us. This is how it worked in the old days before Jesus (during the times of Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc.): No one is babptized by water. Moses, Noah, and Abraham weren't baptized. Instead, a human must simply believe in God, do God's will, and all is good. No Jesus in this equation. This is how it is now: Now apparently, we must do everything described above, except now we must simply believe in another character, Jesus. The point is, mankind was very sinful and did what they wanted before Jesus, and nothing much has changed after Jesus. Man hasn't sinned less today because of Jesus. In fact, we probably are more corrupt today than ever. With or without Jesus in the equation the same principles of faith apply: 1) Believe in a supreme being which can't be proven 2) Do whatever that supreme being says Nothing has changed.
************* M*W: It's futile to believe that anyone came to bring humanity salvation. Salvation is not an option for humanity. We are what we are. It is insane to believe that humankind can be saved. Saved from what? The Earth's promises are limited. Salvation cannot occur. That's not possible. We, our human bodies and intelligences, are all we have to see us through. Anything beyond that would be a miracle, and miracles simply do not exist.
Ok you seem to like taking every word 100% literally. So tell me, can you think of any instances of people being tortured and killed because they would not deny...Harry Potter? Do some of the smartest people in this country, and others, base their lives and morals around the teachings of...Harry Potter? Did Harry Potter Alter the course of human history without traveling 200 miles from his homeland. No. Your argument is false.
Ok, whatever you say. Unfortunately this has now descended into idiocy and it's frankly unfair on other people that read this forum. To get somewhere back on track we need to go back a little bit and try again. Now please, if you don't want to answer or can't answer then just say so. I'm asking really nicely that you not bother with pointless one line statements that avoid the question completely while adding no worth to the actual thread. You're 94 years old, by now you should know how debates should be conducted and not be lowering the state of a thread with such worthless inanity. Take a deep breath, sit back and take your time. Do not rush into a reply because that's where mistakes are made and we'll end up continuing along a pathetic, never ending path that doesn't do anyone any good at all. Here we go.. 1) You have claimed that there is more evidence supporting jesus existence than there is for Plato. I would ask that you kindly submit something to support that claim. Do a comparison of the two to show that jesus existence has more credibiliy than Plato's. 2) You made the claim that: "the Bible continues to be shown to be by far the most accurate and broad ranging history book ever written" I have asked a couple of times now to tell me who has shown the bible to be the most accurate history book ever written. By making the statement in the first place you must know the answer. I'm not asking for a lot here, just tell me who. 3) You made the claim that the bible is "constantly being vindicated with new archaeological discoveries". I have asked you to explain what discoveries you are talking about. 4) You have asked me to "Support your local church". I will now ask you to explain why I should support the local church. Does their own god not care? Can he not support it better than I? Answers to these would be very nice. Thank you.
1) Don't have the time. 2) Anybody who has studied modern archaeology, which apparently is not you. 3) Hittites, Egyptian delta cities, Assyrians, Sumerians, Canaanites, you know? 4) Yes, the local churches are supported much better than you can.
Convenient. As some around here will know, I am currently doing a degree in Archaeology. I have been for around 2 years now, (it's work from home and I don't get that much time so admittedly it could be done faster). However, for the sake of argument let's just say I do not know the very first thing about anything. As a result of that could you kindly answer the question and tell me who has shown the bible to be the most accurate history book ever written? Thanks again. I have asked you to explain what discoveries have been made. I have not asked you to give me the names of a bunch of cultures. So then we agree that there was no purpose in telling me to support the local church. Kindly don't do it again.
It seems that in the face of convincing and cited evidence, they just throw their hands up and claim your too young for anything relevant to come out of your mouth and stick their head's in the sand. Anyways.... It's hard to seek a man who didn't exist at the time of your living. or for another couple thousand years as well. That is like saying someone who died in 1850 should have gotten into Beatles music. The were dead long before the Beatles was even born, so your argument is nothing but BS.
The point is, these men lived their entire lives serving God through the Spirit. Not the Holy Ghost. Not Jesus. The Holy Ghost is mentioned zero times in the old testament. Abraham, Moses, and Noah served God through the Spirit. Not through baptism of water or "being saved." These guys didn't get baptized in water and say: "well that's it, I'm all set. Now I just don't murder anyone until I die and I'm definetly in heaven." Also this is why I wanted to discuss the components of humans. Assuming the existence of a God which is a spirit with no soul, it looks as if we are made up of TWO parts, the physcial body and the Spirit which is using that body as a host. The Spirit shouldn't need a mediator between it and God, it should be able to communicate with God directly.
They looked forward in faith to the promised Messiah who would make things right ("the seed of the woman shall crush the serpents head"), and they acknowledged their faith in such by sacrificing lambs, to cover their sins (and nakedness) until the Messiah would come and do away with the animal sacrifices.
Just because these guys gave sacrifices to God doesn't imply a relation to Jesus. They were sacrificing to God out of service and respect directly to Him, not due to Jesus. Cain and Abel, one of the first humans to walk the face of the earth, also made animal and plant sacrifices as offerings to God. Gen 4:2-4 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: KJV If Jesus was involved here I'm sure the divinely inspired writer of Genesis chapter 4 would have included this aspect.
"Us" implied God and his heavenly court of Angels. God was the one who walked in the garden with Adam. God himself. There is no plural form being given.
The early portions of the bible are translations from earlier stories, (Sumerian). As a result god appears in plural, (from the many gods). Some studying will reveal all of this more than fanciful imagination will manage. It covers Adam, (adamu), Noah, (Utnapishtim), the nephilim, (anunnaki), and yes it even covers the reason for the snake and the snakes head being crushed, (Tiamat was the snake crushed by Marduk). Elohim does not refer to angels, nor does it refer to jesus. Please, let's compare notes..
Yes, Elohim is plural, but it doesn't mean it is referring to the Trinity. In fact, I don't recall Jesus, The Messiah, Immanuel, Yehweh, etc. or the Holy Ghost ever being mentioned at all in the creation from Genesis. I'm sure the "divinely inspired" author surely would have given some mention, or honor, to Jesus, The Messiah, Immanuel, Yehweh, etc. or the Holy Ghost if he really meant Elohim to represent the Trinity. In fact, why not just use the hebrew word for Trinity, or Triange, or 3, or Delta, or... All Elohim means implies is the plural form. Plural DOES NOT mean 3. It could mean 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. Take your pick. You personally interpet Elohim to mean Trinity, or 3, but that's all it is, your interpretation. (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press) The point is, no one knows for sure why in Genesis Chapter 1 God says "let us." You can twist it any way you'd like. If you believe in the Trinity, you can twist it that way. If you don't, you can twist it a variety of other ways. Personally, I don't see the "let us" referring to a Trinity. Otherwise, Jesus or the Holy Ghost would have been mentioned at least ONE TIME during the whole book of Genesis. IceAgeCivilizations, tell me if you agree if with this theory of creation: 1. Pre-earth, Pre-universe - God is alone in the dimension of heaven. There is nothing but him. 2. God is lonely so he creates Angels, which are 100% spiritual beings with no souls. They are separate, individual, spiritual substances with free wills and the ability to choose to do what they wish. God creates these Angels with different levels of authority, the archangel being the highest in command, 2nd to God. Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer are created as Archangels. The other Angels serve different purposes with different levels of power. 3. So God, and the Angels are living in heaven together. All is good. Everyone is happy. 4. Eventually, life gets boring. No one has purpose. Lucifer has had enough. He decides that he wants to run his own government and rule over others, like God. So he convinces a third of the other Angels to rebel with him and join his army. Lucifer's goal: overthrow the Kingdom of Heaven. 5. God is obviously angered by this and exiles Lucifer and his army. Lucifer and his army put up a fight, but were annhiliated by Michael and the other two thirds of the angels which hadn't rebelled. He has no where to exile them so he creates a new dimension, in which the Universe, including the earth, are created. Lucifer and his army are exiled there and forced to live in the spiritual "realm" of the earth. They are still in the heaven/spiritual dimension, but they have the ability to control certain things in the physcial earth dimension, pending approval by God to do so (such as physically attack Job). 6. At first, the earth contains only Lucifer and his fallen angels. During this intial period the planet earth is infested by dinosaurs, cave men, etc. It is without form, void, and full of darkness due to Lucifer's presence. 7. Then God says let there be light, and begins the restoration of the earth. Eventually he creates physical man, whose purpose is to restore earth. 8. Man sins, and here we are. _______________________________________________________________ IceAgeCivilizations, or anyone else, do you believe that Genesis Chapter 1 describes a restoration process as described above? Note: If you believe in the Trinity, simply substite God with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost.
James aka IceAgeCivilizations, you are supposedly an author, and an aledged biblical scholar. however not once have you backed up any claim you have made with any evidence or replied to anything ask of you, with an intelligence response, you sir are a troll. it is without doubt obvious you must have had a ghost writer, doing all the hard work, and only your name is on the book. I cant see how you could have wrote any books, infact I wonder whether you have enough braincells to walk. your a troll and a spammer. and it is really worthless, trying to make intelligent convesation with an ameoba. I for one refuse to get drawn in by you inane rubbish any more. bye.
Greetings, Mate, what sort of nonsense is this? You keep making claims. I show your claims are FALSE. Completely wrong. So, you just move on to ANOTHER FALSE CLAIM. Without ever acknowledging all your previous false claims. People die for false beliefs all the time. Suicide bombers do. Therefore, according to YOUR ARGUMENT, Suicide bombers are right. Heaven's Gate cult died for their beliefs. Therefore, according to YOUR ARGUMENT, Heven's Gate cult were right. See? People die for false beliefs all the time. It proves NOTHING AT ALL. Anyway - there is NO EVIDENCE that anyone died rather than deny Jesus. NONE. Just legends from centuries later. Round and round the mulberry bush.... Some of the smartest people in this country, and others, base their lives and morals around the teachings of Krishna. Therefore, according to YOUR ARGUMENT, Krishna is real. You just DON'T GET IT. Your arguments are all FALSE. None of them stand up to scrutiny. Why won't you admit that? Did Jesus? No. But enforced belief in Jesus did. Iasion
