How Catholics Can Evangelize Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Alright. So anyone who argues against Christians -- against true Christians -- is actually arguing against an OBSCURITY?

    So much ado about -- nothing?

    Well, that makes an awful lot of sense.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2005
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  3. Joeman Eviiiiiiiil Clown Registered Senior Member

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    Because your little book clearly says the earth is around 6000 years old give or take a few hundred years. If you believe bible is God's word, picking and choosing is not allowed.
     
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  5. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

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    maybe to you or to say a muslim or a sikh for instance.
    maybe to you, anybody who knows what it is to be a true xian, would know what was'nt truly xian would'nt they.
     
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  7. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Audible,


    Have you taken sides? If yes, whose side are you on?

    Or are you arguing against people who call themselves Christians, but are not true Christians (per your understanding)?
     
  8. energy1 Registered Member

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    22
    Joeman:
    A Christian (according to Scripture) is one who repents of sin, and puts his faith in what Jesus Christ did on his behalf by dying on the cross to pay the price to obtain God's forgiveness, a personal relationship with God and eternal life.

    After I came to know Christ personally it was almost two more years before God showed me the literal reality of Genesis, (instantaneous 6 day creation). I had been so engrained in evolution for so many years, it took that long before I could fully accept Biblical reality even with the Holy Spirit's guidance.
    And you expect 'unbelievers' to get it without the Holy Spirit's help?! Ha, no way!

    Remember what the Scriptures say:

    "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered the heart of man, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.......But the natural man (unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned...." (I Corin. 2)

    Energy
     
  9. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

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    954
    Joeman stated "Those are not real Catholics because they are not Christians" in reply to okinrus catholics can believe statement.to which crimson scribe said joeman was being judgmental(judge not.)
    which I replied " Crimson: you are not judging when you state a fact." I am an atheist it quite obivious which side I would take that does'nt mean I have'nt studied and learn the opposing side doctrine, I would not allow myself to voice a opinion if I had not first learn something about the subject. that would be foolish.

    I have yet to meet a true xian, so I would have to say present company accepted.

    it's when they become high and mighty, with statements like judge not, with that demeaning attitude, we had one guy once who used to tell you,
    to shhh when you spoke about god, and he was the biggest hypocrite I'd ever ran into. xian are and have always been hypocrites http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42174
     
  10. Crimson_Scribe Thespian Registered Senior Member

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    214
    This ‘life’ thing I have going on sure keeps me from speaking for myself.

    I’d like to remind everyone in the forum that it’s awfully hard to judge tone based on two words, but by all means, go ahead.

    I was merely reminding my Christian brethren to remember how we are meant to act. Of course, I mistook Joeman for a Christian (I’ve heard Christians say similar things), so Joeman, I’m sorry, that was my bad.

    Audible, thank you for stating explicitly how you feel, I enjoy reading well-thought out posts. Please remember, though, that we’ve not met.
     
  11. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    13,406
    audible,
    Excellent posts.
    Thank you.
     
  12. yeah theyre kinda true, but they ignore a lot of the finer points of his philosophy not to mention totally overlook his genius.
     
  13. i believe that if you are catholic and wish not to be excommunicated, then the POPE says what you have to believe. i mean call me crazy, but thats always the way its seemed to me.
     

  14. actually, someone seems to have missed the point here, whether its the nazis or whoever, it takes a lot of twisting of Darwins theory to use it to justify the extermination of inferior races. the reason for this is because Darwins theory states that species, or members of species that fail to adapt will be culled out of the gene pool gradually BY NATURAL PROCESSES. Darwin posits a system of the natural world that regulates itself without a helping hand from hitler or anyone else.
     
  15. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    1,116
    audible, that was a very good summary of "true" Christianity. I've never met one either. But I'm bound to say that my personal definition of a Christian, being the tolerant and all-embracing person that I am is simply: anyone who describes himself as a Christian.

    I'd like to ask, if anyone knows - that linked page about Catholics evangelising Atheists, what the hell is this "Second Exodus" book he keeps going on about? Is this an apocryphal scripture, or some just book he's written?

    EDIT: Ignore me, it's just the name of the website - I just didn't notice!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2005
  16. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Audible a very interesting post indeed. Did you cut and paste it form somewhere or did you produse the definitions yourself? No worry i will comment on the points.


    Very true. we are in the end times and scripture says that the end times would be like the days of Noah. Only Noah and 8 families where said to have been saved.


    Very true. Most just rely on what the supposed "professionals" say weather they be someone with a pompous title in front of their name or a theological book author. People make men their Messiah's every day.



    Very true. They entrust their eternity into the hands of the "proffesionals?"



    Yes true.



    Well i do not trust any dating of scripture because i do not trust the people who dated it. But yes the deceivers where in on the act early on in the game.



    They did spectacularly.



    Yes. And the greatest evidence of that was your letters last verse quotation.

    "But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." Luke. 6:35

    Fighting and killing constantine enemies for Christianity is as about as logical as becoming a prostitute to protect ones virginity. Therefore Harlot of babylon

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    Yes Babylonian religion is very very old, the demons names have morphed but the old girl remains essentially the same.

    I would not call today’s "christianity" 100% Babylonian i would call it to varying degrees watered down Christianity with a lot of paganism mixed in.

    You see if the harlot was 100% Babylonian then the beast would not have to tear her apart and destroy her with fire in an hour. when the anti-christ comes he will destroy all traces of organized Christianity even if it is a watered down twisted variety. Darkness will only put up with pure darkness. And anyway why does satan need a false church when his boy will be out to exterminate all Christians. The Harlot will no longer be needed.




    It is a twisted one yes made to no effect what i call balaam jesus religion. The most deadly religion is the one closest to the truth without being the truth. Good verse quote by the way.

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    Now this needs a slight correction you say the Sabbath is Saturday. That could lead people to think it was from midnight Friday to midnight Saturday. But No it is from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday Jewish days start at sunset so Saturday is from Friday 6.00pm to Saturday 6.00pm. Hate to come across as picky but what was is.

    Now in general terms i keep all days holy i am on the internet every day doing what Paul did no the Sabbath in the synagogues. Also we have the law of liberty that allows us to follow conscience on what days to observe and what days not to observe. I will not post Romans Chapter 14 but if you are interested. read it to find out about the law of liberty.



    This is the thing. The covenant said though out your generations many Christians are convinced that the Jewish observances of the weekly Sabbath was for the Jewish people and their descendants though out their generations.

    Of course some Christians think otherwise and they follow the Sabbath (Jewish one) in a way they are convinced by conscience to follow. The important thing is the Spirit of the individual Christian for whatever they do or do not do they must do from faith and a good conscience toward God because anything done or not done against ones conscience is sin for that Christian. As i said Read Romans chapter 14.



    Yes during the Millennial Kingdom of the returned Messiah.



    The rest is for the saints in the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah.



    This was in reference to those who did not have the right attitude to the Sabbath and how where locked in to the letter of the law rather than the intent of the Sabbath. to give men a days rest away from work when they could dwell on things eternal (God) and grow in understanding. The people had become nit picking ordinances police going by the letter not by the spirit of the Law.



    The Holy Spirit is referred to as a Helper and Comforter both titles giving the Holy Spirit a persona not a power/force/energy label. Also Jesus said. That the Holy Spirit could be blasphemed.

    Luke 12:10
    “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

    Also

    Mark 13
    11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

    Last but not least:

    John 14
    26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    The Holy Spirit is given a He persona.

    As for the trinity I believe in John chapter 1 by faith in God. There have been many attempts to explain it from the old “yoke white shell” egg explanation to the Ice, water, steam explanation but they are just attempts by men to find answers that satisfy them.

    The statement stands:

    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

    I believe that trying to explain that is vanity. Jesus is the Word that is a statement of faith, One day i hope to understand but i have a feeling it will be after the resurrection not before.



    I cannot agree here. even though you post scriptures you have not fully understood them.

    What is Life??? Life is physical existence. But existence is not necessarily always physical existence.

    It says that a soul that sins will surely die it is truth because death is the end of life, no necessarily the end of existence.


    Upon the return of the Messiah Jesus God will raise from the dead those who are saved and they will receive eternal incorruptible "bodies". Therefore the resurrected ones will be alive forever more with Jesus. One of the biggest lies of religion is that people will spend eternity in heaven. The book of revelation clearly state (to those who have been guided in understanding by the Holy Spirit) that the New Jerusalem a physical city will come down to earth and we (Christians) will dwell in it forever and ever in the presence of God. God is coming down to earth and will live with men for eternity on earth. Not in heaven.

    So everyone will exist forever. But not everyone will be granted eternal Life.





    fully agree, well said. A true Christian could not have written it better.



    Yes i agree, well said.



    Yes but there seems to be an exception made to those who are killed for their belief in Jesus. In the Book of Revelation it states. This happened or will happen in heaven.

    Revelation 6
    9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

    The Martyrs where in heaven before the return of the Messiah Jesus.



    Of cource.



    Yes we wait in joyful hope for the Word's return.



    Yes that is truth. But as we know we fail Jesus word every day. That’s why we rely of Him for forgiveness for our failing His teachings. In truth i believe no one can live up to the teachings of Jesus. But we can agree with them that they are good and true. As Paul said:

    Romans 7
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    And

    Romans 8
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

    We are condemned or saved by what we approve, we are forgiven because we believe God.


    Thanks Audible i enjoyed that. A bit convicting for me as well. but still better than most of the stuff that passes here.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     

  17. hey remember this asshole? he thought we were in the end times too only like 200 years ago and then when the world failed to end on the day he predicted it would, he moved it back by a year, and then it didnt end on that day either and his followers freaked out and burst into tears (as though it was a bad thing that the world didnt end) and eventually figured they must have been wrong and so instead of making specific predictions they started (drum roll please) possibly the most idiotic sect of christianity to date THE 7th DAY ADVENTISTS! YAY!

    please, we're not in the end times until the end comes.

    read it

    taken from:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/amprophesy.html

    One of the most significant figures to come out of this revivalist spirit of the Second Great Awakening is a farmer from upstate New York by the name of William Miller. Miller begins to read the Bible, and he undertakes a new sense of understanding of how to interpret prophecy and the Book of Revelation itself. The most important thing that William Miller brings to the discussions of the Book of Revelation is his new sense of how the events are going to unfold. In contrast to earlier interpreters, Miller argues that the Book of Revelation is completely unfulfilled. All of the events described there are things that will occur at the end of time, whereas earlier interpreters had seen events unfolding throughout Christian history in the past. ... The crucial change in Miller's interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that he sees all of those events as still to come in the future. Nothing there-- maybe the first chapter alone, but nothing in the rest of the book has been fulfilled. ...

    Now, what Miller thinks is going to happen is that the prophecies of Daniel will be fulfilled in the end that's just about to come. This is when the Second Coming of Christ will occur, what he begins to call the Advent. In fact, that's what his movement comes to be known as: the Adventists' movement. But the Advent or the Second Coming of Christ will occur in 1843.

    The details of Miller's system are extremely complicated. They're difficult to follow. He drew upon passages in the Book of Daniel that refer to 1,260 days, and translated the days into years, and used as his beginning point the command to rebuild the Jewish Temple after the Babylonian captivity, moved forward from that, and by a really very elaborate and somewhat circuitous system, came up with the year 1843. It was an interpretive system that he found convincing, and that evidently many thousands of Americans of his day did as well.

    When the first disappointment came in 1843, they went back to the drawing board, and they realized that they had made an error of one year by neglecting to take into account the transition from BC to AD, and because of that, they had gotten it off by a year. So they simply moved it forward one year to 1844. So that extended the excitement for one more year. But then at that point came the Great Disappointment, and the movement simply fragmented for the moment. ...

    After the Great Disappointment, we have very poignant accounts of believers who describe the dismay, the weeping, literally the disappointment they felt. They had anticipated that they were going to be carried into heaven. It didn't happen. The world went on as before. Life went on as before. And it was a very traumatic experience for those who had been caught up in the movement. ...
     
  18. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    What the? What has the 7 day adventists and Miller got to do with the my reply to audible's post?

    Yes i know about the prophesies of the false prophet Miller there have been thousands of false prophets proclaiming the imminent return of the Messiah most of them have not received the publicity that Miller got.

    Why did you post this? Where you trying to undermine my faith in God

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    Or the second coming of the Messiah? If so you undermined your effort completely by starting it by calling me an asshole.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  19. first off, the asshole i was referring to was Miller, not you. so no offense. the point i was making is that apocalyptic christianity has been proven time and again to be nothing but a fucking delusion brought on by people who have nothing better to do than sift through verses in the bible and come up with absurd ways to calculate the number of days or months or years until the end of creation. as if you could ever have any foreknowledge of something like that. please. that was my point, when you say we are living in the end times youre basically Miller without an complex and circular mathematical formula.
     
  20. dr. cello Thrilling Conversationalist Registered Senior Member

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    mostly, no. Nietzsche's philosophy did not in any real way support the Nazi ideology. but people believe that it did, and are seemingly unwilling to actually read up and confirm or deny. i think the reasoning goes like this: 'nietzsche is evil.' 'is he? have you ever read him?' 'well, no.' 'shouldn't you do that before you judge?' 'i can't read him, he's evil.'
     

  21. hahaha good point.
     
  22. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Oh ok fair enough, you where referring to miller as an ass hole. Sorry i misread that. But you see there is a big difference between me and miller, I do not claim to be a prophet of God. I say what i believe not what i know in relation to the end times. So i strongly believe we are in the end times but i do not know we are in the end times. I do not say the Messiah will return on such and such a date so sayeth the Lord.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     

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