How can unbelievers come to believe in God?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Enmos, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I have heard this one too. "God does not give us evidence, because that would mean we don't need to have faith. But the Bible said we must have faith."
    It seems that they were trying to retrospectively (retroactively?) trying to justify having faith.
     
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  3. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    Read the Bible and be open to the possibility that God exists.

    I believe the Message of the Bible is very powerful in convincing some people that God exists.

    If someone does go down this path i suggest they start by reading the New Testament. and then read the Old Testament.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  5. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    Incontrovertible evidence they can show another person.

    But one can be shown personally, Incontrovertible evidence from God.


    No. It's not a case of absolute no reason and 100% faith. It is a Mix. There are reasons to believe God exists. But they are not incontrovertible others can bring forth counter reasons not to believe.

    Believe is never 100% reason, With God there is always a need for Faith because no one knows God fully.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  7. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    The common misconception that non-believers must not have read, or even heard of the bible.

    There are many who lost their faith only after sitting down and fully reading the bible. Of course the usual excuse is that they didn't read it with the spirit of god in them or something along those lines.

    Sounds familiar. Can't show you, but you'll know it when you see it. So really it's up to god whether anyone sees this sign. So the person who was born with a mind that's rational who sees no reason or need to believe, as well as the person who wants to believe throughout their life, searching every day for that confirmation, they're both out of luck unless god gives them something to work with.

    I'll say again...an all powerful god knows what he's given each person to prevent faith in believing, as well as what it would take to give each person that faith. So it's really in his court, if he wants that worship. He's the god, after all.
     
  8. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    Well i find it is normaly a case of simple disagreement with what God has said and done.

    There may be very little input from the Holy Spirit to a person who refuses to take the first step. Just enough for the initial conviction to be resisted.


    Yes.


    Rationalism has nothing to do with it. That’s just a arrogant statement of personal superiority coming from the mouth of an atheist. I see in other threads people reputedly saying that Theists have a superior attitude. The above sentence drips with superior attitude.



    People can claim they are seeking and wanting to believe, but i find that a lot of people are seeking and wanting to believe in a god that conforms to their wishes, a pet god, someone who snaps to attention and follows their theological orders.



    He will get and is getting that worship. One day you will worship Him too. All will bow down to Him one day, does not matter if you where one who embraced His will or rejected His will.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  9. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    Rationality has everything to do with it because a rational person will critically examine even the most profound personal experience(s). A rational person is compelled to concede that such experiences do not represent "incontrovertible evidence" of anything, since people can become convinced of all kinds of things through such mechanisms. What you and many other theists will likely never admit to yourselves is that ultimately, you believe in God because you want to believe. In an of itself that does not make you wrong, but beyond the basic awareness of self, rationality and certainty can not legitimately coexist.
     
  10. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    that's absolutely untrue, but you believe that because you want to believe it.

    who in their right mind would want to believe in god? and why? knowing god is WAY too consequential and the consequences are WAY too impactive, and all-encompassing. getting to know god is like going through basic training, to get torn down in order to be built up. it's by far the most challenging thing in my life.

    you're also assuming in ignorance that i haven't "critically examined" my bevy of spiritual experiences, and i have done exactly that. you don't run a monopoly on critical examination you know.

    knowing god is like having someone follow you around 24/7 with a mirror. are you saying that would be desirable for most people? i argue that if it were, a lot more people would know god.
     
  11. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    Most theists I know, and have known, see it very differently. Spiritual life is, for them, something that is much more rich and fulfilling than the life they feel they would be living otherwise. I don't doubt that certain aspects of it may be challenging at times (in fact I know as much from experience) but overall they see it as a positive and desirable reality. Then of course there is the often expressed opinion that life would be utterly meaningless and therefore horribly depressing if there wasn't a God or an afterlife.

    The critical examination is for the purposes of establishing whether or not your personal subjective experiences can legitimately constitute incontrovertible evidence of God's existence. A rational person is compelled to concede that although such experiences may seem very real, they are not necessarily evidence of the existence of anything external to oneself.

    I know you will insist that you are certain, and I am sure that you will further insist that your certainty is indeed rational. But if that's the case, then you're not rational the way I am.
     
  12. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Billions of people believe in "god" (or in something analogous) and most of them are kind of born into it, I think. They have an innate tendency to think in religious ways and they kind of accept whatever their community's religious ideas happen to be like they accept other aspects of their native culture.

    I was raised in an untraditionally traditional and rather multi-cultural home. (My parents were Americans living in Japan who met and married there.) The general attitude was very respectful to religion and kind of universalistic, with the idea that all religions point towards something transcendent beyond themselves, even if none of them are 100% literally true. It was a kind of an aesthetic approach to religion, I guess. (My mother collected Buddhist art.) And like most other people I guess, that early upbringing shaped me for the rest of my life. My views today are very similar to those of my parents.

    But no, I don't believe in God.

    What would it take to make me believe? Nothing that I know of, short of God reaching into me and miraculously altering me so that I believe unthinkingly. Maybe the Calvinists are right about it all being a gift of divine grace. If so, I haven't received that grace, nor do I want it.

    I can't imagine any divine appearance in the heavens that would convert me, no matter how impressive a light-show it was. It's what I think of as the 'Independence Day problem', from that science fiction movie in which giant 15-mile wide flying saucers appear over the Earth's major cities. Impressive as all hell, but just because something is impressive and totally inexplicable, doesn't imply that it's a suitable object of religious worship.

    I don't know of any way that a finite human being can ever know for sure that he or she is confronted by an infinite being. Nor am I entirely sure why an infinite being would deserve to be worshipped, even if it was my omnipotent creator. (Except prudence, perhaps, if that's what it takes to avoid being squashed.)

    I can't shake the feeling that "worshipping (a) god" totally misses the point, somehow. That's not what this is about.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    One idea is that we realize we are small and dependent and it is simply good manners to acknowledge the source that satisfies our needs.
    If we follow the source of each thing, we come to the ultimate source, God.

    If you are familiar with Japanese culture, there is the practice of Naikan, and in Buddhism, too, there is a strong emphasis on gratitude.

    One element of worshiping God is basically expressing gratitude to God.
     
  14. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    it is more rich and fulfilling, it's just not easier. usually the greater the challenge, the greater the rewards, but i think you'll have to agree that's not exactly the majority of society's mentality or goal. seems like everyone wants an easy answer, a quick fix, a short term gain. we glorify things like greed, sloth, and lust, and telling lies is mainstream. it's a shame, but true.



    that's...diplomatic.

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    i don't know, i guess everyone has a different way of evaluating things. i tend to see everything like it's a math problem or a logic problem myself. but honestly, this particular endeavor was fairly straight-forward and common sense imo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't God just resurrect the real dog?
    I wouldn't want another dog exactly the same. I would want my real dog.
    Sort it out God!

    A variation on the dog theme is found at funerals.
    The priest always gives the impression that the dead person is in heaven, no matter how big a villain they were. The following never happens:

    Father Mulcahy:
    This person wiz a tirrible divvel, so he was, and if Dare's anny justice he'll be roasting in the flames of hell.

    No, that wouldn't go down too well at all.
     
  16. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Thorugh logical fallacies, personal biases and cherrypicked anecdotes, often with shallow unsubstaintal promises and threats and wierd moral appeals to duty and reason.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont, God does. "Save as many as you can and don't return until your done."
     
  18. -ND- Human Prototype Registered Senior Member

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    Magic tricks.
     
  19. Felixx89 Registered Member

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    offensive? you are just a plain lunatic according to my believes.
     
  20. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    God is proving the power of faith. Keep in mind the angel of faith, Michael is the archangel who commands God's army, not Jesus. Faith is of utmost importance, the only reason God even NEEDED to create life is as a test of faith. What are you going to do when you are born on earth with no recoglation of your angelic past. When you are living your true colors show. Original sin is lust of knowledge, if God gave us evidence of his existence he would be the greatst sinner of all.
     
  21. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    That was then but now there is 7 billion humans. The exercise would be enormous, might as well just go straight to Armageddon and get it over and done with. Saves time and effort.

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  22. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed

    Mr. Pastor needs a lesson in sin. Knowingly feeding ones lust is a sin, especialy from a man of understanding.

    This is laughable. I hate people who think everything they love is going to Heaven, that dog could have been a real heathen. Have you ever seen All Dogs Go to Heaven? Its bs, but most dogs do, think about traits most dogs share; loyalty, integrity, good parents, and wise.

    .

    Wait what??? Ever heard of the 4 beast? LUL, animals have souls what kind of crap is that?

    With a snap of a finger... but he will not.

    Two strikes for the pastor, original sin, and a lie.

    This is false. Humans are animals. From the dust you were made, to the dust you will return. This applys to anything on earth.

    Yea. No. You don't get sent down. You get sent back. The first death is of the faithful, the second death is of the ones who gained faith after the first death. After that if you are left one earth its because you are still being reincarnated meaning you have been found in the book yet. Your punishment for evil is living through the worst parts of revelation.

    Dogs, are generaly good people. I have never met a dog who willingly does evil.

    I hate conformity. 25% of Christians are worried they are going to Hell.

    .

    Do you believe God has good reason for only giving us faith, not evidence?

    My reason for faith, its what I believe. I don't push my faith onto anyone, but I will defend it until my death. Christianity doesn't even have a place in Heaven lulz.
     
  23. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Thank God for Lori_7. Can you read what she writes and not realise you are being conversed by an Angel? So much wisdom and genuine compassion; don't you sense it too?

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