How Can real energy 'permeate space-time', when space-time is just maths construct?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Undefined, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. Undefined Banned Banned

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    Why do you think that after all these decades we have not detected the elusive 'gravity waves' at all, mate? Does it make you re-think any 'beliefs', or are you just a 'waiting believer' and that's the extent of your 'handle on things'?
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You can poison it, deride it, misinterprete it all you like.
    GP-B measured the warping and twisting of space/time....we can also extract forces from it [Casimir effect] We also know an unknown force we dub DE is accelerating the expansion rate...Why we could even feel it, if we were unfortunate enough to have a decent size gravity wave pass through us.
    You can twist, squirm and misinterpret all you like...You can argue, preach, and belittle the mainstream view all you like.
    But that is the mainstream picture of reality and in which I fully agree.
    Now I think you need to comfort the other nut infesting the thread, put your ideas together, and see what you are able to come up with.

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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Because they are hard to detect??Same reason we have only just discovered the acceleration in the expansion rate...same reason we have only just discovered the Higgs.
    Besides we do have excellent indirect evidence of their existence.

    Now really undefined, you can do better than that!

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  7. cav755 Banned Banned

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    "Think of waves on the surface of water. Here we can describe two entirely different things. Either we may observe how the undulatory surface forming the boundary between water and air alters in the course of time; or else-with the help of small floats, for instance - we can observe how the position of the separate particles of water alters in the course of time. If the existence of such floats for tracking the motion of the particles of a fluid were a fundamental impossibility in physics - if, in fact nothing else whatever were observable than the shape of the space occupied by the water as it varies in time, we should have no ground for the assumption that water consists of movable particles. But all the same we could characterise it as a medium." - Albert Einstein

    if, in fact nothing else whatever were observable than the shape of the space occupied by the aether as it varies in time, we should have no ground for the assumption that aether consists of movable particles. But all the same we could characterise it as a medium having mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And of course theoretically logically, if space/time can be bent/warped/twisted, [measured events] why would we not be able to have gravity waves produced, with a large enough movement/collision/gravitational interactions of massive objects.
     
  9. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Gravitational waves are aether displacement waves. What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is the aether.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Except the ether doesn't exist.
    How many forums have you been banned from for continually pushing such crap?
     
  11. Undefined Banned Banned

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    It measured the deviational motions. Period.

    The interpretations of what causes the deviations is based on 'abstract spacetime math-only model'. Relativity and QM have YET to come up with the actual real physical entities and mechanisms which couple a 'abstract spacetime construct' to the REAL energy/mass which creates the surrounding gravity effect.

    What poisoning? Just telling you the distinction between abstraction and real things. Would you call your parents 'poisoners' if they thought you were old and mature enough to 'handle the truth' of the reality that there in NO SANTA CLAUS, paddo?

    Keep your emotional and believer tendencies out of science discourse/understandings, else you'll end up in la-la-land like many I could mention.

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    Even that 'expansion rate' interpretation is FLAWED, along with the rest of the BB biased 'interpretations of the actual observations of far energy-space processes via photons traversing a 'mixmaster' of all sorts of other processes/energy-space conditions in between.

    And if we can detect the Neutrino, we should be able to detect the gravity wave. That tells you gravity waves are 'hard to detect' because they don't make it hardly any distance from the localized dynamical processes which produce them....if they actually produce such at all. Theory that would 'detect far traveling gravity waves' is obviously flawed....and yet 'the true believers' will fight to the death to defend their hypothetical BB biased fantasies about the BB Inflationary epoch universe was 'ringing like a bell with primeval gravity waves'.

    No-one of them bothers to ask themselves how an infinitely flat universe (or even a faster-than-lightspeed Inflationary one) can have BOUNDARY in the NOTHING in which is supposedly come from, such that the 'boundaries would reflect and gravity waves would reverberate and 'ring' that universal extent 'like a bell'.

    See the 'comic book fantasies' masquerading as 'mainstream BB explanations', paddo? Good luck.

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  12. cav755 Banned Banned

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    "The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum. . . . Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that any such matter must have relativistic symmetry. [..] It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with 'stuff' that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo." - Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    You can flower/deflower it all you like. It measured the space/time curvature by the Earth and also the Lense-Thirring effect caused by the rotation....PERIOD!!!!
    Let's ignore the following gobbdydook.....



    No, as others have noted, that's only a result of your own confusion and agenda.


    My beliefs are not emotional..They are based on weight of evidence, both experimental and observational. Whatever misinterpretation you put on my beliefs and the mainstream science, is yours to formulate.
    It's just a crying shame you let beliefs you had when you were 9, influence your ideas on reality or otherwise.
    Let me list again.
    Space/time, space, time, gravity, matter, energy are all real....
    Your delusions of grandeur, your ToE, your paranoia with mainstream science is an abstraction only evident in your own mind.



    :roflmao:
    Rewriting more 20th century cosmology undefined?


    Oh damn the rest of your nonsense...
    Gravity waves exist...we do have evidence...and yes, they are and will be hard to find, just as the Higgs was...but guess what? we'll do it eventually.
    Let's just say now you are not just near the fringe undefined, you are approaching loony tune territory with your anti anti anti mainstream obsession.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543


    And it is nothing like the ether you are harping on about and have subsequently been banned from other forums for....
    Like I said, the ether as you model it, does not exist, and the space/time/gravity as you model it, is completely wrong.
     
  15. cav755 Banned Banned

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    They've already been detected.

    'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/news/dark_matter_ring_feature.html

    "Astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark mater, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."

    The 'pond' consists of aether.

    The ripple is an aether displacement wave.

    The ripple is a gravitational wave.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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  17. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Do you realize mainstream physics is unable to understand that the ripple created when galaxy clusters collide is a gravitational wave? Do you understand they can't figure that out because of their incorrect notion of non-baryonic dark matter being anchored to matter? Now I realize you are going to crawl back into your shell, but just remember, for a moment, you understood what occurs physically in nature more correctly than mainstream physics.

    'Galactic Pile-Up May Point to Mysterious New Dark Force in the Universe'
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/01/musket-ball-dark-force/

    "The reason this is strange is that dark matter is thought to barely interact with itself. The dark matter should just coast through itself and move at the same speed as the hardly interacting galaxies. Instead, it looks like the dark matter is crashing into something — perhaps itself – and slowing down faster than the galaxies are. But this would require the dark matter to be able to interact with itself in a completely new an unexpected way, a “dark force” that affects only dark matter."

    It's not a new force. It's the aether displaced by each of the galaxy clusters interacting analogous to the bow waves of two boats which pass by each other.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543

    WOW!!!!

    And you have???
    We have another Einstein fellas!
    Really sonny, your delusions of grandeur is noted...Now go along to the pseudoscience section.
     
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Lots of responses, but I don't see any that say it directly:
    Space-time is not a mathematical construct, it is - as far as is known - the actual structure of the universe.
     
  20. Undefined Banned Banned

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    You'll believe anything, mate, if you believe calling it the Lens Thirring Effect gives it any more real explanatory power than the abstractions of 'spacetime' have already offered. The Lens Thirring Effect is the label given the 'dragging of spacetime' that is still an abstract thing, not an actual explanation of the underlying real physical entities and mechanisms that couple that 'abstract' spacetime' to real objects/energy that would explain the observed motions which are abstracted and called 'spacetime frame dragging' or Lens Thirring Effect. All still ABSTRACTIONS and LABELS, not actual real explanations of what causes what is observed.

    I bet your parents had a hard time getting you to 'disbelieve' in SANTA CLAUS if this is the extent to which you confuse abstraction with reality.

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  21. Undefined Banned Banned

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    As far as is known? In what sense is it 'known'. By abstract terms or real physical terms? There is a gulf of EFFECTIVE difference between the two.

    Haven't you read any of the latest discussions about 'time' being a useful but 'derived' analytical tool abstracted from the real motional observations of real energy-space feature events/dynamics?

    Is Santa Claus 'real' to you too?

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    Come on, how about a REAL answer and not just more abstraction/math concepts in lieu (as I requested you should avoid in my opening post). Thanks, Russ for your response anyway.

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  22. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Just remember, for a moment, you advanced your knowledge when you responded, "Indirect evidence but yes good.". For a moment you understood the ripple created when galaxy clusters collide was indirect evidence of a gravitational wave. Mainstream physics has yet to figure that out.
     
  23. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Curved spacetime is a geometrical representation of gravity. That's why it is referred to as a pseudo-force.

    Aether has mass and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

    What is referred to geometrically as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the aether.

    Displaced aether pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward matter is gravity.
     

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