How Can real energy 'permeate space-time', when space-time is just maths construct?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Undefined, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. Undefined Banned Banned

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    Okay, everyone, go to it!

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    Just how, exactly, can anything real (energy) be said to 'pervade' the mathematical 'time' abstraction part of, or even the overall concept of, a mathematical-only 'space-time' construct?

    In reality, all that is observable is that REAL thing (energy) pervades REAL space. Hence the REAL construct of Energy-Space universal background REALITY in which and back to which all real things arise, evolve, and subside in a never ending PROCESSING of that energy-space into 'features' and dynamics thereof.

    Please feel free to give us your 'take' on that in science terms not more abstraction/maths terms and or personality terms, ok, everyone? Will read though tomorrow to see what transpired. Cheers.

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  3. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    [sniff sniff] I smell cesspool material.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Energy, as far as we know, was inherent with the evolution of space and time at the BB [or to be precise, at t+10-43 seconds]
    That energy is generally recognised as the Superforce, plus also an unknown concept that maybe DE/CC
    Since that time, we have realized via GR that space and time are actually one concept, and that reality we call space/time.
    From this same space/time/energy, matter evolved, eventually taking form in all that we see today as matter.

    Your last paragraph/request is impossible to comply with, as science/physics naturally consists of abstract and real Ideas, non physical reality and maths terminology.
    Maths of course is the language of physics/cosmology and in no way can it be ignored, other then in some pseudoscientific sense.
     
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  7. cav755 Banned Banned

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    'Ether and the Theory of Relativity - Albert Einstein'

    http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html

    "Since according to our present conceptions the elementary particles of matter are also, in their essence, nothing else than condensations of the electromagnetic field"

    The electromagnetic field is a state of the aether. Particles of matter are condensations of aether. Aether has mass.

    'DOES THE INERTIA OF A BODY DEPEND UPON ITS ENERGY-CONTENT?' A. EINSTEIN

    http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/e_mc2.pdf

    "If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, its mass diminishes by L/c2."

    The mass of the body does diminish. However, the matter which no longer exists as part of the body has not vanished; it still exists, as aether. Matter evaporates into aether. As matter evaporates into aether it expands into neighboring places; which is energy. Mass is conserved.

    When a nuclear bomb explodes matter evaporates into aether. The evaporation is energy. Mass is conserved.
     
  8. Undefined Banned Banned

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    No, that 'smell' is YOU not being able to offer a cogent answer to that valid logical question.

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    So....off YOU go to the cesspool, then!

    And don't come back until you have an on-topic cogent answer for the valid logical question posed. Make sure you have a nice lo-o-ong hot shower with heavy duty detergent soap first though!

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  9. Undefined Banned Banned

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    Thankyou for your polite and relevant response, paddoboy.

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    Yes, we've heard all about the 'space-time' and 'energy' at hypothesized BB scenario 'beginnings' and 'inflation' etc. I started from that point when asking the question.

    So, how do YOU think 'energy' can be said (as claimed by some) to 'pervade' a TIME concept per se....essentially at at root a purely DERIVED maths/abstract concept which is now part of the 'space-TIME' maths abstract construct/concept already alluded to and understood as the starting point for this question?

    Since 'time' is empirically shown to be 'derived' abstraction/math convenient 'relativity' factor for modeling abstractly those motions in/of energy-space feature/processes which are the only real and observable entities/processes, then the composite 'concept abstraction' of 'space-time' has no real existence EXCEPT AS an abstract math modeling 'construct/concept'.


    So, paddoboy, everyone, the original question of the OP remains. How can it be said/claimed by anyone that energy (real) supposedly 'pervades' space-'time' (unreal)?

    Thanks.

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  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Your question has been answered...But that answer invalidates all that you believe. Whatever made the BB bang, was probably that energy.
    I have a personal idea, but it is just that...A speculative scenario and not accepted mainstream thinking.

    You need to revise your thinking about what is and isn't real, and what is and isn't purely abstract...EG: space. time, space/time, gravity, matter, energy are all real....
    On the other hand your ToE, anti mainstream propaganda, and anti peer review paranoia are abstract.
     
  11. rpenner Fully Wired Staff Member

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    Please demonstrate the unreality of space-time.

    Time is obviously a non-imaginary ordering of the events of one's life. It appears to be metrical. Prizes are awarded for accomplishing certain tasks with the least amount of time.
    Space is obviously a non-imaginary separation of the events of one's life from another's. It appears to be metrical. Prizes are awarded for traversing certain intervals of space.

    Space-time is neither obviously real or obviously unreal, for the concept requires that space and time be related in some way. Obviously for this to be a precision notion, there must be a precision metric relating intervals of space-time to each other and an explanation of why space and time appear to be metrical separately in our everyday life. This is the content of general relativity, a physical theory with has agreed with physical observation in every instance. In situations where gravity can be neglected, special relativity also has had similar success. General relativity also contains the non-obvious prediction that my elapsed time may very well not be your elapsed time which has been independently confirmed many times, sometimes as part of medium-budget science shows on television.

    So based on the epistemology of science, empiricism demands that we accept (provisionally!) that the universe acts exactly as if space-time was real with the specific non-agreement of idealized and actual clocks predicted by general relativity ( and in situations where gravity can be neglected, special relativity) until such time that an empirically vetted better model of gravity and motion is advanced.

    Now distinguishing between a universe that acts exactly as if space-time was real and a universe that acts in a certain manner because space-time is real is by definition not possible, so until the OP advances a specific physical theory that explains gravitational or motion in a manner that is empirically better than that of general relativity, one is let to the conclusion that the topic of discussion raised by the OP is neither mathematics nor physics.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You said that a lot better then I did.
    I dips me lid to ya!
     
  13. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Everything is with respect to the state of the aether in which it exists. When you take an atomic clock to the top of a mountain it ticks faster due to the change in the state of the aether in which it exists which as determined by its connections with the Earth and the state of the aether in neighboring places is the state of displacement of the aether.

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Relativ/airtim.htmll

    "Relative to the atomic time scale of the U.S. Naval Observatory, the flying clocks lost 59+/-10 nanoseconds during the eastward trip and gained 273+/-7 nanosecond during the westward trip, where the errors are the corresponding standard deviations."

    Flying with the Earth's rotation, eastward, is flying against the 'flow' of aether, relative to the surface of the Earth, causing a greater aether force on the atomic clock causing the atomic clock to tick slower. Flying against the Earth's rotation, westward, is flying with the 'flow' of aether, relative to the surface of the Earth, causing a lower aether force on the atomic clock causing the atomic clock to tick faster.

    The rate at which an atomic clock ticks is determined by the state of the aether in which it exists.

    The geometrical notion of curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the aether.
     
  14. Undefined Banned Banned

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    Not at all. So far, the CONCEPT of spacetime is a 'reality' ONLY within the bounds of your own abstract mathematical/philosophical 'modeling construct'.

    You have on more than one occasion made the distinction between maths and reality in order to support your complaints against 'cranks' trying to make the reality relevant to maths.

    Now it seems a little double-standards of you to suddenly pretend that an abstract maths construct is 'real' in anything but a philosophical/maths sense.

    Maybe a distinction should be drawn between your sense of 'reality in maths/abstractions/philosophy' sense and the sense of reality as THE reality energy-space physical dynamics which your maths/abstractions are MODELING via convenient analytical METAPHORS/DERIVED dimensions like 'time axis' etc which we all know no-one can travel in reverse direction along that 'maths dimensional graphing axis' IN REALITY physics not abstract 'math-physics'.

    Perhaps you should look to your own 'wanting-it-both-ways' types of 'arguments' which fall at the first hint of objectively real physical reality reference, hey, rpenner? Thanks anyway for your response.

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    PS: So, can you answer the OP question as asked? Cheers.

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  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No, that is just plain rubbish. There is no aether in the manner you present....Gravity/space/time does not Interact in the manner you present.
    You have no evidence to support such pseudoscience rubbish, and is probably why even the thread initiator, another anti anti, has failed to support your nonsense. He can only go so far...You on the other hand, are over the precipice.
     
  16. Undefined Banned Banned

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    For pity's sake, paddo, don't keep 'me too-ing' things which turn out to be two-way invalid 'arguments' when closely examined in reality. You are embarrassing yourself and making everyone squirm with pity at your pathetic attempts to gain relevance and authority by coat-tailing on others. It's even more pitiable when you're coat-tailing on patently FLAWED stuff like that self-serving set o rationalizations masquerading as 'objective argument' of any sort. Don't be so desperate to let other people 'think for you'. Think for yourself for a change, for pity's sake. Do better than this troll/cheerleading coat-tailing stuff with your time and intellect. I know you can do better, so 'just do it' and let others pretending to 'authority' sink on their own accounts without letting them take you down with them by your hold on their coat-tails!

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  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No, again you are wrong....Space/time has even been measured [GP-B]....We can extract forces from it. [Casimir effect].....It also has another form of energy we have dubbed DE, that is accelerating the expansion rate against the pull of gravity.
     
  18. cav755 Banned Banned

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    The rate at which an atomic clock ticks is a physical process determined by the physical state of the space in which it exists.

    The rate at which an atomic clock ticks is a physical process determined by the physical state of the aether in which it exists.

    The state of the aether as determined by its connections with the matter and the state of the aether in neighboring places is the state of displacement of the aether.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And of course we could also feel it, if we had the misfortune of a decent size gravity wave pass through us!

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    Yep, it's real alright!
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Whatever

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  21. cav755 Banned Banned

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    Gravity Probe B

    Watch the following video starting at 0:45 to see a visual representation of the state of the aether. What is referred to as a twist in spacetime is the state of displacement of the aether.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ITt44-EHE

    "Imagine the Earth as if it were immersed in honey," says Francis Everitt of Stanford University in California, the mission's chief scientist. "As the planet rotates, the honey around it would swirl, and it's the same with space and time."

    The 'swirl' is more correctly described as the state of displacement of the aether.

    The state of the aether as determined by its connections with the Earth and the state of the aether in neighboring places is the state of displacement of the aether.
     
  22. Undefined Banned Banned

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    What is wrong with you, mate? You can't tell the difference between observing the MOTIONS of the satellite and assuming some abstract mathematical analytical construct 'spacetime' context for the INTERPRETATION of that motion? It in NO WAY IDENTIFIES or speaks of what the REAL entities and mechanisms are that CAUSE that observed motion.

    Mate, if you don't understand the difference between reality and assumptive/interpretive abstractions about it, then you're in big trouble when trying to 'get a handle' on all these discussions/points. Do yourself a favor and start thinking for yourself based on ALL the info from ALL 'sides' you've seen posted on these matters. Else you will live forever as a abstraction 'believer' rather than a reality 'knower'. Good luck!

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  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Childish, unsupported pseudscience rubbish....
    Like I said to you previously, you can rant and push your fairy tales in this forum forever and a day.
    It will make no difference to actual mainstream workings and experiments out in the big world.
    You get no where here sonny.
    The accepted model of space/time/gravity will remain so...You'll just have to live with that, won't you?


    http://einstein.stanford.edu/
     

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