Holy texts should be respected by scholars

I would not expect you to understand.

So you think all scientific progress is a hobby?

That was the answer. There are lots of animals that prey on humans; as we get more and more advanced in our knowledge, we conquer the "laws of nature" and are able to defend ourselves better against our predators, no matter what their size or shape. Its called the challenge of survival and its what drives human beings to achieve ( other than those who only study it in their spare time, that is)

:m:

 

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Once again, avoiding everything in preference of just attempting pathetic little insult.. or something.

Still, we get back to your original statement and rhetorical question. You asked yourself why there are hungry people, and then went on to blame humanity - when in actual fact, (from the brief responses I've somehow managed to squeeze from you), you now state it's because your god has done it to challenge us and give us something to learn about.

Therefore, as I said, it's not humanity, it's god - so sayeth you.

Thank you. Took you a long time to get there, but at least now you understand it's not fault of humans. Ok sure, we could give all our earnings to undermine god's doing, but then he'll have to make something new for us to do - and because it seemingly leads to misery and painful death, I doubt anyone would like it.

Sorry, no worth in your pissy little question. However, there's nothing stopping science from being a hobby. What value it has to this discussion I'll never know, but don't let it dissuade you.

But why bother in the first place? Can I ask, will there be dangerous man eating animals, deadly diseases and barely habitable land masses in heaven? If not, what's the point of it here? Are you going to take that knowledge and experience of progeria with you? Has it helped you somehow right now to suffer from progeria and die at the age of 10?

And those that are the victims of such things, that is.

 

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Thats twisted logic; God has made the laws of nature just as he made moral laws. We have to live within the laws of nature and morality. When we don't we upset the balance leading to the misfortunes you see around you.

I recognise the laws of nature and morality as established by God.

They are the challenges to be met.

So how do I meet them?

I obey the rules. I set aside a specific amount of money from my income for charity; I work hard in my field (nutrition) in several ways: I've worked in hospitals providing nutritional care to sick people; right now, I'm eductaing myself so I can work on diseases related to poor nutrition. I've worked voluntarily (without pay) in nutrition education programs for the economically disadvantaged to help them to provide their children with good nutrition at low cost. This is my ongoing contribution.

In Islam, man has limited power but unlimited freedom of choice; I can bemoan my lack of power, but instead I choose to exercise my freedom of choice.

What do you do for the starving and diseased children?

I don't consider science a hobby; I have 17 years of education and 8 years of work experience to prove it. The value to the discussion? This question you asked me:

"The only reason our countries are 'well off', and the only reason these third world people are starving... is because they live in a place where nothing grows, where disease is rife, where it never rains. Needless to say, "people" had nothing to do with this. Your god created all the diseases - for one purpose only, and created the planet in such way where a massive portion of people have no choice but to starve."

I wondered if you were in science; since science is evidence based and your question showed a severe lack of understanding of the problem you were questioning me about. Being in the field of nutrition I have been actively interested in the HUNGER project and for you to claim " is because they live in a place where nothing grows, where disease is rife, where it never rains" shows that you have never looked at or examined the problem at all. So why the concern?

If you go to the website for the HUNGER project, the first sentence that leaps out at you (or rather me) is:

Chronic hunger occurs when people lack or are systematically denied the opportunity to earn money, be educated, learn skills to meet basic needs, and have a voice in decisions that affect their lives.

I don't know. Do you?

And by blaming theists and their religions the problem is resolved.

 

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Scientific texts should be respected by theists.

Political cartoons should be respected by theists.

Laws should be respected by theists.

Innocent children should be respected by theists.

etc.

etc.

etc.

 

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

?

...and also by atheists.

 

Ooh, a competition. I regularly donate to childrens hospitals, (Great Ormond Street), and to help the British homeless. Further than that, I also treat those with certain illnesses. Now, let's move on..

What does god do for the starving and diseased children?

I see. Ok then, let's just stick to the evidence. We can't say god did anything now, because there's no evidence that such a being exists and you're just talking bullshit whenever you mention your god. Girl, you're a joker.

But if a god exists, would you agree that he created everything? Would you agree that everything includes killer diseases? and this planet with certain parts that don't get rain, don't grow much crop and are not really that well at sustaining life? Now, I am not saying that humans haven't played a bad part, (as well as a good part), but I'm trying to get to the root of the issue - which is that they wouldn't be in the position they are to begin with if their country resembled say England - fertile soil, good weather for growth etc. So what I've been asking is why this supposed god would make a large portion of the planet fine and dandy, and another portion quite inhospitable to life. Your answer was that it gives humans something to study, some challenge. I'm wondering why some countries get more of a 'challenge' than others.

Ok, at least now you're being honest instead of just avoiding that honesty in preference of just flinging random, pointless insult. Needless to say, I don't know - otherwise I wouldn't have been asking you.

Although religion has certainly caused it's share of problems, I haven't once here blamed it or theists. Personally I just feel sorry for theists - and only really get annoyed by them when they try to force belief in sky beings onto the young. So you're wrong. I haven't blamed theists, or their religions.. I have simply asked why their god has created things the way he has. You say it's to give man a challenge, and I suppose that's fair enough. Some child with progeria wouldn't be "driven to achieve things" if he didn't have progeria.. I can see how that works. :bugeye:

 

The starving and diseased children are a consequence of man's sins; God has given us the laws and the freedom, to resolve them.

So the answer to your question is, God created laws of nature and morality for all including the children. They may not have broken the laws, but other men did and it is up to us to resolve it. Islam does not encourage looking to God to solve problems except to ask for strength and guidance through prayer.

At least I'm not looking for anyone else to provide me with answers.

Do they? Why would you associate green fertile soil with progress? Are the green fertile soils of England responsible for its economy? Is that the only way the British put food on their tables? By tilling the green fertile soils?

Economy is a dynamic process, driven by resources, their supply and demand. At one time the civilization in the "desert" was the most advanced, the most progressive and the wealthiest. Man is a curious, driven and innovative animal. He rises above the limitations of his environment. The fact that the environment is inhospitable does not prevent him from attempting to conquer it. All he needs is the education and the resources to do so. The "desert" has other resources; oil, minerals come to mind. These resources can be utilised to better economic conditions and provide the required necessities. In todays world, the absence of any kind of green fields cannot be considered a drawback to sustenance; if that were the case, the Eskimos would be the first to die of starvation.

You persist in misunderstanding the basic philosophy of Islam.
You are free to continue to do so.

 

And there we have it, ladies and germs, a true religious fundamentalist's view.

Allah created all things, but disease is our fault.

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Congratulations!

You persist in twisting logic and reason to suit your fundamentalist needs. Are you free to continue doing so?

 

Welcome back Q

I love you too

 

I keep telling you, you need to update your dictionary

fundamentalism - the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth

Did I say disease is our fault? I said the starving diseased children are our fault.

And they are.

 

Your argument is as follows:

"God chose mortal and fallible men to write down the holy scriptures. He prefers to use non-miraculous natural means if possible. Given the limited scientific knowledge of the early times, the writings of these ancients should not be considered worthless, for it was not their intent to write concerning the scientific facts, but to write on cosmogonic realities that are reflected in the microcosm of each human life. The innocence of their form, such as saying "God walked with man in the evening" is also meant to speak to the human heart.

Much of the scriptures is also poetry. When was the last time that a poem was put under scientific scrutiny? Poetry and symbol is the language of Myth. These things speak to that mystical part of the human experience which is non-verbal.

Myths also are true, not in the factual sense, but in the way that they speak to Man's divinity and humanity. In scripture, we find not only Yawehistic poetry but also the incorporation of other near eastern myths, such as those of Canaan cult where the divinity is characterized in the storm thunder. This does not invalidate the truth that Israel was God's chosen people. Evidence of synthesis and syncretistism in a religion is no grounds for invalidation. God can use any vehical of inspiration he wishes, and that icludes the contribution of other peoples. These symbols do not identify God with thunder, they do not say "God is thunder" they say,"God speaks also through thunder"

The poetry of scripture must first be examined as a whole, looking at its beginning and end, with a view to its narrative meaning as well as its underlying realities. One must consider the point of view of the one speaking, for he represents the human condition. Thus the psalmist laments the errors of the Israelites in the desert, and is able to tell a human story in much greater depth than if he simply listed asuccession of facts about the bronze age.

The Word of God is living, it still shapes humanity, it is creative. The word has real power. It is covenental also in that it holy scriptures tell the story of salvation, indeed, the scriptures are deeply inbued with God's character. Whatdo find out about God? A character of faithfulness and patience who is ever remembering his beloved. Through myths as well as actual events the word reveals a prophetic God as protagonist, in this mythic and legendary reality God is the hero.

Christ's word is effective as the divine transformative act. indeed, God's word demands that we make a decision, to either reject or accept, for it can never leave us indifferent."

I have a number of issues with your arguments which I will explain below.

"To take up the scriptures and submit them to a rationalistic test of scientific validity, which determins the factual basis for each statement, is shallow."

That may well be true; to try and reduce the Bible to a science textbook (which ironically many Christian fundamentalists do) makes as much sense trying to understand the behaviour of the Sun using Shakespeare's sonnets. However, if you are criticising biblical scholars who use critical scholarship to understand the Bible for their presuppositions, you also bring strong theological presuppositions to your arguments which you don't state. For example:

"Christ's word is effective as the divine transformative act. indeed, God's word demands that we make a decision, to either reject or accept, for it can never leave us indifferent."

This is not really an argument but one of many standard theological assumptions in conservative evangelical Protestantism. This view on salvation comes from the way Luther and Calvin read the letters of Paul and the rest of the Bible based on their own convictions. A Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian would disagree strongly with this statement and the presuppositions in it.

Similarly with this statement:

"The Word of God is living, it still shapes humanity, it is creative. The word has real power."

This is also a dogmatic presumption about God, God's nature, and the Bible, common to apologetical Protestant literature. While I don't object to someone taking a position, this position is neither the mainstream of Christian theology (Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would object) and this should be stated clearly in your argument.

In summary, your argument is not really an argument but well-rehearsed Protestant dogmatic theology. As such because it rests on presuppositions about the Bible, God and Jesus rather than argument, it is on no firmer or weaker ground than the presuppositions of critical bible scholars.

 

You honestly actually believe this garbage? Quite shocking, still.. do tell me what 'sin' or sins a 1 day old has committed to have progeria.

I can already guess what you're going to say. You're going to say that the child hasn't committed the sin, but that the sins of his parents, and those before him were the ones that did sin, and this innocent young child is paying for it, (from a biblical perspective, yes.. yhwh says he will punish a child for the sins of his parents, grandparents, great, and great great gp's)

But then what we're left with is a ongoing line: you're as messed up as you are because your father sinned, who's father sinned etc etc all the way back to the first man that sinned and who's father invariably created him in such manner that he would sin - and thus at that very same time made diseases and what not to ensure that he suffered for those sins that he couldn't avoid.

I know you're not christian, but could you attempt answer then that if jesus did get sacrificed to forgive mankind for all their sins, why do diseases still exist? Why do those that believe in god, repent for their inability to not sin, and are told by a being that cannot lie that they are forgiven for those sins, still die in some of the most painful and disgusting ways imagineable? Why do mosquitos not only bite atheists? Why does cancer not only attack atheists?

Perhaps it's about time you did. How comes most muslim nations are, excuse my language, shitpits?

Naive little child. I am debating with you, asking to hear your opinions and what not - and look at the pathetic sentence you come out with. Do you never ask questions? Surely in doing so you are looking for someone else to provide the answer.. no? Uhh.. lol, you're certainly an amusing one.

Wow, stop the press! You're asking a question Sam, which clearly means you're looking for someone else to provide the answer. Doh!

Anyway, an abundance of water and fertile soil helps in innumerable ways: It keeps people and livestock healthy - meaning they can work more and provide more. Trees grow big and strong - making for better homes, dams and so on, fruit and veg grows big and in abundance, moderate temperature means food does not go off so quickly thus reducing poisoning and other such problems. This rises life expectancy, which leads to more time to learn about things and then teach those things and then progess.

It still plays it's part, yes.

Are you purposely asking a pathetic question?

What time was that?

I never implied otherwise.

Again, I never implied otherwise.

And yet, Eskimos are hardly the most technologically advanced people. But of course I agree with you. If you for one second though I was saying food only comes from green grass, then you're quite the nitwit.

Wtf? islam? What do I care about islam? I haven't even mentioned islam. I asked you questions concerning god. If somehow I am misunderstanding islam, it's because you're giving me wrong answers.

Wake up.

 

You take everything too literally.

I see we have different theological views; you seem focused on the Christian theology, which believes in sacrifice.

The Islamic theology is based on knowledge and struggle (jihad).

The sins which are responsible for the starving diseased children (about whose circumstances you have such clear concise views) are the ones committed by those whose actions have led to the present circumstances in their countries.

These are sins committed by those whose duty it was to provide for them ( the government) by those whose social conscience was obliterated by the possibility of financial gains (like the corporations who put the small farmers out of business and exported food OUT of the country where it was needed) and the countries who under the guise of aid were actually fleecing the people who were in such dire conditions ( $13 dollars for $1).

Because they are run by dictators who are also guilty of breaking both social and moral laws. Muslims who move out of such places do very well for themselves.

Said dictators are established and encouraged in their theocratic aspirations by other non-Muslim countries (also for financial and political gains)...i.e. more sins.

It was a statement of my belief not intended to imply yours. If I want answers, I search for them; I also keep an open mind and do not assume the other person is a moron. Assumptions of idiocy are detrimental to gaining insights which though not valuable in themselves can generate further questions and hence ultimately improve knowledge.

No I am always interested in the insight people bring into a debate, mostly because I understand that insights are generated by experience and perception and these are different among different people. However, regardless of who expresses the insight, I weigh all points expressed in the light of all available evidence and ultimately prefer to come to my own conclusions

desalination

Hydroponics

medicine, diet, education

biotechnology

modern engineering

more biotechnology, hybridisation

refrigeration

education

diet education healthcare

life expectancy

UAE = 0.88
USA=0.87

" this planet with certain parts that don't get rain, don't grow much crop and are not really that well at sustaining life? "

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"The only reason our countries are 'well off', and the only reason these third world people are starving... is because they live in a place where nothing grows, where disease is rife, where it never rains"

Sorry, my mistake. I assumed when you ask a Muslim about God you're talking about Islam.

 

Wtf. You believe there's an all powerful sky being that created man, demons and pubic lice all because a book written by ancient shepherds says so, and you dare to say I take things too literally? Lol.

It's the eventual excuse you people always use when you run out of answers.

Yeah, didn't you see the part where I said although you're not christian can you attempt to answer from a what if perspective. Of course you don't have to, but then just say no instead of stating the blatantly obvious. Of course we have different theological views.. I'm an atheist.

Everything's such a struggle *sigh*.

Out of curiosity, why is the muslim god not as nice as the christian god who forgave all mankind?

For the third time I do not dispute that people have played their part. My focus is on why these things were created as they were to begin with. My apologies but I just cannot fathom the reason for creating little catfish that swim up the end of your penis and hook on to it's insides. I cannot comprehend why a god would create bot flies - that lay their eggs inside living animals/people that then proceed to eat that animal/person from the inside out. I cannot grasp why a being would create progeria - making children look like they're 90 and dying before they hit 10. I cannot understand why a god would make a person allergic to sunlight, water, peanuts or anything else.

These were not made by men.

Certainly. Our welfare system pays good.

Yeah, all the non-muslims fault.

Uk = 78.54
USA = 77.85
UAE = 75.24

(2006) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)

Btw, once more: "What time was that?". All you did was give me a smiley face. That's hardly an answer.

Uhh no, I was asking about god. I don't care who's god he is, or what religion he is head honcho of.

 

Don't worry I'm not one to make excuses.

I meant your theological views re:religion; you seem to have created an amalgamated view where all the religions of the world have the same theology.

The jihad is a struggle with the self; it is the struggle for everything on the road to self-fulfilment; the struggle to do the right thing, the struggle to obey rules and laws, to turn away from temptation, to acquire knowledge, to live far from home and family for education or work, to stand up for yourself in the face of odds. This is an incomplete list and one can add all struggles one meets on the road of life.

It is the way the philosophy is indicated. God is the Creator, the purpose of his creation is hidden from us. Our goal in life is to explore his creation to the fullest extent and attempt to explain it. The only sure way to do it is to acquire knowledge. The first verse ever revealed was "Read! in the name of your Lord!" and it the most important form of worship is to acquire knowledge. The prophet claimed that one hour spent in the contemplation of the creation of God (ie in acquiring knowledge) is equal to 70 years of prayer.

Oops, I'm rambling, sorry. So man has the creation, his natural abilities and the framework of natural and moral laws. These are the only limits. Beyond this, man is completely free and personally responsible for every deed or misdeed. We are responsible directly to God; no priest or Prophet can intercede on our behalf. Our sins are our own.

So it is not a question of Mercy. We have lives to live out and we take what we are given and make the best of it. We do it in a way that benefits us and society and try to fulfil our duties to the best of our abilities without injury to others. The Creation is an unknown; why there is what is, is what we need to figure out.

I think I answered this in my previous ramble.

It is a shame if they are using it; it is forbidden in Islam to take welfare except under three circumstances: one who is in grinding poverty, one who is seriously in debt, or one who is responsible for compensation and finds it difficult to pay.

No they could do nothing if the leaders of the country were not complicit; but they are not free from blame.

You really are picky aren't you?

Those were averages I gave you before but here are the figures from the WHO:
http://www.who.int/countries/are/en/
http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/
http://www.who.int/countries/gbr/en/

You missed the point though; what I was trying to indicate is that today, science can overcome the shortcomings of nature (as in the UAE) so there is relatively little difference in life expectancy when people are given a choice in their decision making.

I was talking about the Arab civilization following the advent of Islam.

You don't have to care; but you make generic assumptions about God which I cannot comprehend and hence cannot answer. If we are debating God, I am only qualified tio speak about God as defined in Islam and will assume such.

 

And you don't? Why not? Are you not a Muslim?

Didn't Allah create diseases? If so, it is his fault. If not, then you have a lot of explaining to do as to who or what created diseases?

 

fundamentalism and Islam can be mutually exclusive.

Read previous post to SL.

 

You'll have to explain how that is possible with Islam?

Can you not ever answer a question?

Did Allah create diseases, yes or no?

 

It is if you follow the philosophy and not take the texts literally but in the context in which they were meant to be taken.

"God is the Creator, the purpose of his creation is hidden from us. Our goal in life is to explore his creation to the fullest extent and attempt to explain it. The only sure way to do it is to acquire knowledge.

So man has the creation, his natural abilities and the framework of natural and moral laws. These are the only limits. Beyond this, man is completely free and personally responsible for every deed or misdeed. We are responsible directly to God. Our sins are our own.

We have lives to live out and we take what we are given and make the best of it. We do it in a way that benefits us and society and try to fulfil our duties to the best of our abilities without injury to others. The Creation is an unknown; why there is what is, is what we need to figure out."

(You sound frustrated; is everything ok?)

Seems rather pointless with you, that's all; I do try but it never seems to proceed in any direction.

Its part of the mystery of his creation. I really couldn't say any more than that because I simply don't know.

 

BS. If that were the case, you can't argue a terrorists taken context of the Quran.

Nonsense, there is no free will in Islam, hence that statement is false. Predestination is totally predominant, and there are verses in the Quran that state this implicitly.

No, you don't try, you avoid, just as you're doing with the "Snake."

You should know, it's spelled out for you in black and white in the Quran. Allah is the creator of all things, therefore he created diseases to scourge mankind. He also created all the other things which are serious detriments to mankind.

If you don't agree with that, then you are no Muslim.