Hello Obamacare, Goodbye Full Time Job

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    The computer industry is a prime example of an entire sector that would not even exist if it were not for decades of publicly-funded state-directed research and development.

    South Korea practices a form of state capitalism (common in East Asia) - national champions like Samsung are in no way independent of or opposed to the State. The work hand-in-glove with one another. Samsung would not exist without decades of special favors and protections given to them by the state, for the purpose of promoting industiralization and growth to improve South Korean society. They are not a valid example of some "free market" entity that outperforms the state, or otherwise exists in tension with it.

    The point is not that corporations are "in it for the good of society," but that society has no reason to allow corporations which do not contribute to such to exist in the first place - and that no corporation can meaningfully exist without the acquiescence, if not outright participation, of the broader society and state.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    this tired lie. libertarian ideas are why were so fucked. the free market religioners like you have had their policies gumming up the works for the past 30 years. sorry but you can't blame your policies on people who want a system that works.
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    hehe.... reminds me of when the Prime minister of Australia pretty much said "Read my lips, No Carbon Tax" then passed a Carbon Tax. You know, not to make more money for the Federal Government... but to reduce global warming. Yeah, you heard it right. All the 'experts' said it wasn't going to affect small business or the little guy. HAAA! HAHAHAHA!!!

    The price is through the roof! The government is literally rolling in money they can waste on their mates pet projects. And I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You mean like the radio or electricity.....


    Or how about this:

    Emancipation?!?! *Gasp* No one's ever ran a successful society without Slavery! We wouldn't be able to eat and cloth ourselves without decades of publicly-funded state-directed Slavery!

    Suffrage!?! *Double Gasp* They've never been able to vote! We couldn't have gotten to where we are as a nation if we let women vote! It's taken millennia of carefully crafted state-supported misogyny to get to where we're at!

    Democracy!?!? *WTF???* Shipping is a prime example an entire sector that would not even exist if it were not for decades of Aristocracy-directed research and development. We NEED a King to tell us what to do, when and how to do it! We're just little people!




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    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    sorry but your anaolgy falls down repeatedly.

    When my samsung galaxy turned out to be a fulty piece of shit i rang my phone company and they were required to replace it under there statitory obligations

    When i see my doctor and he does a faulty CABG they I DIE. How is that in anyway equivilant?
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    19,268
    Because companies could make a lot of money building them. It was not "for the betterment of society." (Look at Foxconn if you think that they are really in it for the good of society.)

    Uh, no, they don't. The cafe owner allows you to use "free" internet. (It's not free, of course; he pays for it and uses it to lure people into his store in the hopes of making - wait for it! - money.)

    How did we get this great internet? Through massive government subsidies for decades. It took that long to get the basic structure defined and accepted enough that it was viable on its own.

    Nope. They're in it for the money. If they could sell crap and make money on it, they would. They can't, so they don't.

    The real fact is that people want to live as long as possible and as pain-free as possible. They have demanded services that allow them to do that. Companies have provided them. And since the human body is complex and difficult to fix, the cures/palliatives are difficult and complex. Thus they are very expensive.

    Let's take Samsung again. Let's say they were capable of building a phone that cost $200,000, that was maybe twice as good as present phones that cost $200. How many people would buy it? I'm guessing close to zero.

    Now let's take a healthcare company. Let's say they were capable of giving you ten more years of life for $200 or twenty more years of life for $200,000. How many people would take the extra ten years? Anyone who can afford it.

    That's the difference. Trying to conflate the two is absurd.

    Wow! Your statement shows that you know almost nothing about free market economies.

    No. Sounds like you were though.

    Volunteerism, provided you are not harming anyone else.

    Force and coercion, if you harm others (intentionally or otherwise.) Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose, and your right to pollute stops at the edge of your property.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Totally agree - and yet they make our lives better. We know this because people VOLUNTARILY buy them.

    NOTE: Did know that those stores about Foxconn abusing their workers was COMPLETELY made up by an internet hack who had never visited China. He has since said it was "Performance Art".

    I suspect he'd be in prison except Apple just wanted the whole bad publicity to go away. I wish they'd have sued him and sent him, at least, to the poor house.


    And isn't this AGAIN an awesome outcome of voluntarism? You will not find this happening in government. Only the illusion of it happening. There's always a forced tax involved. Yet, in the FREE market, there is only voluntarism.

    Electricity came out of the free market.

    HA! They WOULD IF they were the government! Which is why you take a number and wait in line at the Department of Roads and Vehicules to fill in more forms to get a licence renewed by a bitch-face sour public 'service' empolyee. Whereas at our friend Mr Cafe everything is done to make your life enjoyable and served to you with a smile in a friendly environment.

    See the difference?

    One more time: ELECTRICITY came from the FREE MARKET. If we hadn't gotten Government involved in our lives we'd have spectacular health service, pocket sized fMRI, all sorts of things that would make today see so 1960s....

    Your iPhone is nearly as complex. Or an jet.

    You should read I, Pencil about the massive complexity it takes to make a pencil. It's unimaginably complex. Yet it happens in the free market.

    If the government we involved in making Smart Phones we'd refer to them as Dumb Phones and they'd costs $50,000 with a $5000 a year service contract.
    We also agree here.
    And we agree here too - which is why property rights are so important (beginning with our bodies).
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    ???????? yeah Tesla wouldn't go for your ideas. mine on the other hand he'd fucking love.



    and I'm glad you mentioned those this because what happened to their inventor is a shining example of what the free market entails. edison screwed tesla out of his inventions and made millions off of his idea. that your vaunted free market in action. theft.


    not to mention the fact tesla himself wasn't a big fan of the markets. you electricty that he is responsible for? he wanted to create a system so that everyone would have access to FREE energy. that was one of his goals.
     
  12. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    More companies anounce they're cutting employee's hours to avoid Obamacare:

    and
    and
    We are so screwed
     
  13. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure less employees working less hours won't impact customer service, and all that entails. It's amazing how corporations don't get the adage, you have to spend money to make money. They try and squeeze every last dime out of things, often in the wrong way, and then hurt themselves and their employees in the end.

    All the more reason the employer should be taken out of the middle of health care.

    Oh, and I question Metz's strategy. That 5% seems a bit more than his supposed loss, given he's already planning to try and avoid the penalty, so I wonder how much of this ploy is an attempt to profit from others' pain. Wouldn't be the first time.
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    You know what, I find it FASCINATING and quite disturbing that you say employers should be the ones providing health care but then that its a disaster when they are required to do it.

    Either a) get employers out of healthcare all together and pay it from taxes (MUCH better alternative) or b) stop these greedy fucks from avoiding there responsibility, if employers should do it then even if the employee works 1 hour they should get healthcare.
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Yes you are screwed, because after implementation of Obamacare the lies that have been promulgated by people like you now for 3+ years are going to be exposed. People will learn that there are no death panels that the middle class will not be saddled with huge tax increases because of Obamacare. They will learn that the economy will not be destroyed by Obamacare, the Sun will continue to rise and set every day. And they will continue to have jobs. And they will see first hand that Obamacare does not interject itself between the patient and the physician as advertised and as Republicans did in Virgina with transvaginal ultrasounds. Every modern industrial nation in the world has managed to afford universal healthcare without the dire consequences you guys have been preaching. Darden Restaurants operates profitably in Canada which has universal healthcare. Darden and Denny's didn’t mind Canada’s universal healthcare when they opened their restaurants in Canada. Papa John's also operates profitably in socialist Canada and Europe with their universal healthcare plans. And socialist universal healthcare in Canada didn't deter CKE from opening it's first Carl Juniors in Canada last year. So these companies can and do work profitably in other countries with universal healthcare, so why not in The United States?

    Obamacare does not become mandatory until 2014, more than a year from now, so all the nonsense about part-time people doesn't affect businesses for more than a year, some 13+ months from now. Additionally, the companies you mentioned already go out of their way to keep most of their employees part-time in order to avoid paying benefits. So basically, there is no change for those businesses. And businesses can get federal subsidies if they purchase healthcare insurance through the exchanges.

    All the lies about Obamacare are going to be laid bare. So yeah, you guys are screwed, and Republicans in congress know it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  16. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    Yep. With the internet videos/caches replete with examples of their lies, stupidities and outright lunacies, the repubs/conserves record will be a rich resource for comedians and democrats to 'mine' and enjoy disseminating for decades to come.
     
  17. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    3,252
    So, basically, cheapskate companies that were already avoiding paying benefits by hiring workers part time are going to cut employees hours so that they can continue to avoid paying benefits... Why am I not surprised?
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Now that Republicans have been proven to be mathematically challenged, maybe you can try some remedial figuring. Consider the case of the owner of Papa John's Pizza, who appears to be similarly situated as the businesses you cited. He's up in arms about the prospects of raising the cost of pizza by some 12¢:

    Last year, Papa John’s International captured $1.218 billion in revenue. Total operating expenses were $1.131 billion. So if Schnatter’s math is accurate (Obamacare will cost his company $5-8 million more annually), then new regulation translates into a .4% to .7% (yes, fractions of a percent) expense increase. It’s difficult to set that ratio against the proposed pie increase, given size and topping differentials, but many of their large specialty pizzas run for $16. Remarkably, a 10-14 cent increase on a $16 pizza falls in a comparable range: .6% to.9%. But the cost transference becomes less equitable if you’re looking at medium pizzas, which run closer to $12, meaning a .8% to 1.15% price increase.

    (He lives in a 44,000 sq ft mansion with a 22-car garage.)

    http://www.salon.com/2012/11/16/papa_johns_bad_obamacare_math/
     
  19. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    4,955
    No, no, no! He's a job creator! These are the people that make our economy work, purely out of the goodness of their hearts! If we force them to share more, they are likely to turn their backs to us and "go Galt"!

    It really makes you wonder how these "captains of industry" ruthlessly clawed their way to the top, beholden to no one, if they are such crybabies now. Up until now, John Schnatter has been able to make as much money as he does now by externalizing the health care costs of employees by saddling them on us taxpayers at large. While I'm sure his management workers have good health plans, you can be sure his low wage workers have none, to very poor ones at best. Yes Mr. Schnatter, we want you to pay your way now. You need employees to make money, and those employees are going to get sick, and get hurt. Cough it up pizza boy.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    to reiterate from my first post in this thread is this really surprising from an industry known for not complying with basic labor law.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Most of us will be just fine. Those working for angry and bitter republican employers might be screwed if they get caught up in the revenge firings. Easy future solution - avoid vengeful republican employers.

    ==================
    Layoffs And Firings May Signal Republican Revenge Over Obama Reelection
    AddictingInfo.com

    . . .
    Today, in a C-SPAN telephone interview (Video/Audio), a small aviation service business owner in Georgia complained that Obama’s reelection has forced him to cut back on hours from 30 to 25 and to lay off two employees to bring his company under the employment caps which trigger coverage under the Affordable Care Act. The employer, who was only identified in the interview as “Stu,” acknowledged that—not only had he voted for Mitt Romney—but that he made sure that the employees he laid off had voted for President Obama.

    In a separate report from a lasvegas.cbslocal.com , a Las Vegas business with 114-employees, claims they fired 22-employees as “a direct result of President Obama’s re-election”. . . .

    While it is too soon to really know how widespread such “business decisions” (or actual revenge) will be in the wake of this week’s election, it is—nonetheless—disturbing that a new dynamic has apparently entered our democratic process…open employer influence (pre-election) and retribution (post-election) of the very freedom of expression of their employees, in exercising their right to vote for the candidate(s) of their choice.
    ====================
    Scout.com:

    CEO's start laying off workers as revenge for Obama victory
    Posted: 11/9/2012 5:12 PM

    With President Obama sticking around for another four years, Murray Energy Corp. CEO Robert Murray has entered “survival mode,” announcing Wednesday that more than 160 employees at various subsidiaries will be laid off, in part due to Obama-related regulations and taxes, WTOV reports.

    Scott Farmer, CEO of uniform manufacturer Cintas, recently sent an email to his employees saying that if Obama wins the election they may lose their healthcare and even jobs, urging them to vote for Romney.

    Mike White, the CEO of Rite-Hite, a manufacturer of loading dock equipment, told his employees that they would suffer "personal consequences" if Obama is reelected.

    Robert Murray, CEO of coal company Murray Enterprises, not only put pressure on his employees to vote for Romney, but also forced them to give up a day's pay to attend a Romney rally. The Ohio Democratic Party is planning a criminal investigation.
    =============================
     
  22. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    Question, wasn't it the Heritage Foundation that first proposed the individual mandate as an alternative to the single payer system and employer mandate?

    http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    The Next Obamacare Challenge

    Early this year when the Supreme Court ruled on Obamacare the court ruled that the mandatory Medicaid expansion in the Obamacare law was optional for states. As a result, many Republican governors in red states are refusing to the implement the Medicaid expansion provision even though the Medicaid expansion is fully funded by the federal government for the next 3 years and 90% thereafter.

    As a result, millions of people who are at or below the poverty line and live in those states will still not be able to afford healthcare insurance. So many low wage earners will still not be able to afford healthcare insurance in these red states in spite of Obamacare.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/29/news/economy/health-care-medicaid/index.htm

    But here is the rub for those red state governors; the federal government currently provides large subsidies to hospitals to compensate hospitals for the care they currently provide to the uninsured. Under Obamacare, those subsidies go away because everyone should be insured under the Obamacare law. So when these governors reject the Obamacare Medicaid expansion, they are screwing their hospital industry and residents of their states just to pursue a political vendetta. So who will pick up the healthcare costs for these uninsured people in red states whose governors refuse to implement the Medicaid expansion? Will it be the insured folks who live in those states or will it be the tax payers in those states? Either way, these governors are committing their residents to higher tax burdens or higher healthcare insurance costs and potentially lower quality of healthcare resulting from the cost strains placed on their healthcare system.

    Most experts don’t think Republican governors will be that stupid and refuse to implement the Medicaid expansions in Obamacare. But if there is one thing I have learned over the course of the last several years is to not under estimate the Republican Party’s ability and willingness to do stupid things.
     

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