Hawking radiation

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by hardalee, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    This HR thing is being discussed for last 2-3 threads. My stand was consistent and unwaivering, as follows..

    1. I had raised an objection that this + / - energy particle interpretation is vague and not clear, Schemelzer also had clearly expressed the sloppiness of this, subsequently Q-reeus put it clearly raising the same objection, but Paddoboy continued with his popular cut pastes, finally based on Q-reeus post Tashja organised some responses. Prof Unruh and others clarified that indeed this interpretation is popular one and not exact. That settled this.

    2. I also raised an objection that an isolated BH is an impossibility, and the evaporation of BH is possible only if we ignore CMBR and accretion by BH. As usual Paddoboy killed this argument also. Now Prof Misner has confirmed this too that absorption of CMBR is more than HR emission. Its like this if you take a very big tank, and the inflow is more than the outflow, then the Tank is not going to get empty, and dreaming that tank will get empty is only a fantasy. So here also I said 'Evaporation of BH' is a fantasy as long as CMBR absorption is there, and as rightly put by Q-reeus as long as CMBR T > HR T. In this era with HR T being as low as nano kelvin for solar BHs, we never know when CMBR T (2.7 K as of now) will fall below that or otherway round..


    Even now Paddoboy is trying to misinterpret what Prof Misner is saying, just to prove me wrong.

    Now there is one more issue which got created due to Prof Misner response.....I feel that HR would be there even if there is no complete empty space around, I mean getting the absolute vacuum is not in our realms of possibilities, so if we take his words on face value then that would make even HR unviable, what he probably is referring is presence of CMBR and its absorption and thus impossibility of BH evaporation. I do not think he is trying to say that complete empty space (Without even CMBR) is required around BH for HR emission.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    The only consistency and unwavering in any of your posts, is your apparent delusional facade that you are never wrong, and refusing to supply anything you fabricate.
    All anyone has ever claimed in this thread is that HR is a reasonable logical outcome based on quantum physics and that this Yilmaz theory is not causing a stir at all. That is what has been supported by most experts.
    A BH in isolation is certainly not impossible....Sorry to spoil your party again. And stellar size BH remnant could exist in isolation.
    While that is certainly true re the evaporation concept, what isn't true is the fact that this is not what you originally claimed.
    And of course the good Professor elaborated about the future in time and how HR is still a logical outcome. A fact that OnlyMe has also already picked you up on.
    And as I said in post 380 thus
    "The Professor's intent is obvious. HR is logically a minimal scenario. Most BH's by there very nature, will be swallowing far more than what is evaporated due to HR, at this time of course. Just as obvious is the fact that in the far far distant future HR will eventually gain ascendancy and the BH should indeed evaporate.
    In a similar vane, all of spacetime is expanding, but over smaller denser scales, the effects of gravity overcome that expansion and systems such as our local group and further afield, are void of any obvious spacetime expansion and are gravitationally bound".
    None of that invalidates HR nor demotes it to a fantasy. That is just your own unsupported version of cosmology, which you admit is not mainstream.
    Or perhaps this is just more clowning around by you, to use your own words?

    Some smart people here my friend, you ain't gonna fool any of them with unsupported claims.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    No not a fantasy as your analogy is very limited. HR will in the end take place and evaporate BH's in time and according to what most generally accept.
    I do not need to prove you wrong. You are doing a good job of that yourself with your obvious lies and misinterpretations.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You appear to be stuck between a rock and a hard place my friend.
    Really your words, sentences, and more words without any support are like dust in the wind.

    This matter certainly is settled.
    HR is generally supported by mainstream as an application of quantum physics
    [2] Yilmaz theory has barely created a ripple and GR still stands as unchallenged at this time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    Can you please give some reference here? You are claiming a BH without CMBR around, without any kind of electromagnetic radiation. Is it possible in reality? Prof Misner has categorically stated that all the possible candidates for BH are absorbing CMBR and their mass is increasing, you are contradicting him.

    And what is BH remnant ? A BH is a BH, isn't it?

    You don't spoil my party, Son, I just let you drink....
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    The BH is a remnant...a stellar remnant.
    Stellar BH's certainly are able to exist in isolation. I did not mention "without CMBR around" that's just more of your usual style to confuse.
    But speaking of the CMBR and HR, we all know [I think] that the CMBR is diminishing over time. Eventually HR will supercede. Just as the Professor and I explained to you.
    So once again saying that HR is a fantasy on that basis, is just plain wrong.

    Well it was you who said you clown around. Is this more clowning?
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    Give you reference?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I have been asking you for references since you retired rajesh and assumed the god. You have totally ignored it and are unable to give any credentials as to why anyone should accept your nonsense over professional experts.
    And of course Professor Misner's e-mail is the reference anyway.
     
  9. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    You are reported.

    You make a statement, that BH can be found in isolation...then cop out.
    Thats what you do....because this kind of stuff cannot be found in your popscience...if you had any you would have painted the wall with red all around..

    And do not misquote Prof Misner, he never said that a BH can be found in isolation......what a pathetic joke and dishonest troll you are, misquoting the professor too!
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I'm mortified!

    And of course Professor Misner's e-mail is the reference anyway.
    Yes my claim that BH's in isolation can be found and supported in many links you claim as pop science. But that's you.
    I did not claim Professor Misner said anything about isolated BH's...Its common knowledge.
    What I said.......
    But speaking of the CMBR and HR, we all know [I think] that the CMBR is diminishing over time. Eventually HR will supercede. Just as the Professor and I explained to you.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    As the good Professor Misner said, HR is the general consensus and an application of quantum physics at or near the BH EH.
    In time and as often utilised in a futuristic history of the universe, HR and BH evaporation, along with probably proton decay may be the last interactions in a near dead cold universe.
    Some time to go as yet.
     
  12. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    Give at least one.


    [/QUOTE]


    Oh!! I see.

    And how CMBR is diminishing over time? Mr Paddoboy.

    Let me help you, the temperature of a solar mass BH is around 60 Nano Kelvin that is 60 X 10^-9 Degree K......while the present temperature of CMBR is around 2.7 K. Now please tell this forum Paddoboy, how much time it will take for 2.7 K CMBR to cool down to 60 X 10^-9 Degree K.....Any idea or just bluffing? You took the cue from Q-reeus post? Good, you are learning, but you are a straw-man, sunk completely but still holding on to a straw.

    I am done with you on these points.
     
  13. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    Muaaaaaahhhhhhh.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    When you give me links claiming that HR is a fantasy, or that tidal gravity never overcomes the strong nulcear force.
    I doubt it.
    Are you saying the left over heat from the BB has always been 2.7K?
    Think universal expansion.
    HR radiation is an accepted application of quantum physics with regards to BH's. I'm not interested in your plaguerised figures please check post 380
    I hope so.

    facts. HR is an accepted cosmological quatum physics application as applied to BH's and EH's
    Yilmaz theory which has been around for more than 20 years, is hardly worth considering for reasons already given and is barely a ripple in scientific circles.
    The last time I looked, GR still holds pride of place as the most overwhelmingly correct theory of gravity that we have.
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    Knowing that my friend will not go back to check post 380, here is what I was referring to.
    The Professor's intent is obvious. HR is logically a minimal scenario. Most BH's by there very nature, will be swallowing far more than what is evaporated due to HR, at this time of course. Just as obvious is the fact that in the far far distant future HR will eventually gain ascendancy and the BH should indeed evaporate.
    In a similar vane, all of spacetime is expanding, but over smaller denser scales, the effects of gravity overcome that expansion and systems such as our local group and further afield, are void of any obvious spacetime expansion and are gravitationally bound.
     
  16. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,825
    Hey, paddoboy and The God, instead of just clogging up the math and physics section with your continuous bitching at each other why don't you take this to the formal debate section and be done with it! I don't think anyone really wants to see this here - I certainly am tired of it.
     
    Kristoffer and OnlyMe like this.
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    OnlyMe expressed the same correct view the other day.
    As i told him, I am trying to avoid insults and abuse and such, and the possibility of both of us being banned.
    Which puts "the god" at a distinct advantage as he would than just resurrect rajesh.
    Along with avoiding insults and his abuse, I suppose its also time to ignore his pedant and idiocy.
    I'll certainly keep stating the mainstream case and highlight any pseudoscience interpretations from him supported with links.
    For the rest of the crap, I can only apologise.
     
  18. brucep Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,098
    Origins asking you to moderate yourselves. That's a problem for this place and you won't get any help until you get fed up and use inappropriate language. The moderator for this type of extended bullshit is the ignore function. That's what we have. That's a fact which is empirically confirmed every time this type of crap is allowed to run 150 pages.
     
  19. tashja Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    715
    Hey, Q, guys. Sorry for the delay. I just got Prof. Robertson's reply:

     
    OnlyMe and Q-reeus like this.
  20. The God Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,546
    Another of your lies, Paddoboy......

    If CMBR is around, how the BH is in Isolation?

    You will recall everything you posted if you read the Post# 37 to 55 in your "Is Hawking any closer to solving the puzzle of black holes?" thread. There also you abused my post which mentioned CMBR absorption, you dishonestly changed your stand only after Prof Misner post.
     
  21. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,497
    Thanks tashja for that feedback from Prof. Robertson - better late than never!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    A direct reply from Carroll Alley re Misner's side of their clash would be even better, but I'm not sure if Alley is still breathing.
    In regards to Prof. Robertson's response, obviously I agree with his general thrust, particularly regarding false claims EFE's 'correctly' incorporate field self-gravitation. And despite what one poster here claimed, whether or not in vacuo Ricci curvature is zero precisely covers the essence that case. It nicely agrees with e.g comments in #361, #370. Also agree that redshift *must* be an exponential function of Newtonian potential - and that really inevitably paves the way right there for Yilmaz theory - as per my #260.

    The ppt article (downloadable version now non-corrupted) I have linked to numerous times: http://www.powershow.com/view/1bbc8-ZjhlZ/P1246341516SeoJH_flash_ppt_presentation
    sketches out the logical development of Yilmaz gravity, including derivation of that exponential redshift expression, which just in that aspect alone, is a dagger to the heart of GR.

    Stan Robertson may be correct that Yilmaz theory is perhaps merely a superior approximation than GR as a classical gravity theory, although I have yet to see any other viable contender having the same level of self-consistency.
    [hints he may take issue with my stand re GW's is a separate thing that I well understand. The ultimate reason to reject possibility of the GW's both GR and many other rival theories including Yilmaz theory predict, is quite surprising.]
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
  22. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,914
    Once again Tashja, very nice. Prof. Robertson was generous with his comments and when placed in the context of Prof. Misner's full comment earlier provides a great deal of.., food for thought.
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,225
    No, no lying at all, at least not on my part. What we do have though is a total misunderstanding of the English language by yourself. When people talk of "in isolation" as I was speaking of, they speak of a mass or object in spacetime [as it currently is] with no other massive body around...eg: An isolated star that has been kicked out of a galaxy....likewise a stellar size BH that has formed from such a stellar object.
    The CMBR is a uniform microwave aspect of all spacetime, with only very slight minimal near uniform temperature variations.
    Of course you can refute that if you like by supplying a reputable reference or link.
    Would you like to reference where I changed my stance?
    I didn't think so.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    And you wonder why so many here have you on ignore!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015

Share This Page