Have all people been born before?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Natalie_Nicole, Feb 24, 2013.

?

Do you think all people have been born before?

  1. yes

    29.4%
  2. no

    70.6%
  1. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ Rhaedas,
    pointing out that opinion on this cannot be proven either way. You point at ack of evidence as the evidence. A million years ago there was no evidence of Sciforums. Go figure.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    The onus is usually on the person making an extraordinary claim to provide evidence that their claim is true.
     
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  5. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    you are forgetting entirely about consciousness and its many faucets.
     
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  7. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Never seen anything to even suggest reincarnation (or any other form of after life) - so why should anyone bother to try and disprove something of which there is no evidence?

    And, by the way, a million years ago, there was no SciForums... Go figure.
     
  8. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    2,826
    Because the concept is seen everywhere in our universe, Recycling of parts. Have you not understood by now that all things in the universe come from parts of something else? Theories even exist that say that our universe will collapse again into a point of singularity, only to expand in big bang once-more and create yet another universe in another spacetime. Consciousness is not something that can be explained in our material world, why do you think that is so? Because consciousness is intangible, we cannot define the most important part of us that make us exist! Your children, if you have them...are your reincarnations. They share not just your memories you pass to them, your feelings, but also your DNA which you passed to them...and this is just in our material world. Microsoft, the holy grail of all computers, is a software...an intangible set of rules that only physical manifestation is electrons passing in particular manner through circuit.
     
  9. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ Gmilam,

    I have seen evidence I believe is conducive to an afterlife. My explanation is in a lengthy post here...
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?133784-A-science-view-of-god-Easier-to-believe

    @ James R,
    I think it is your belief that is extraordinary. I see my view as perfectly natural. I think your stance is natural for you as you (skeptics) lack the perception to see life as it is.

    My views and reasoning on religion are known, however I did explain it again in the above link. I also believe that miracles and Synchronicity (Jung's term for miracles), are only possible if our past is alterable either
    a) through a timeless global consciousness that correlates our plans.
    b) we are all living in superposition such as a giant Schrodinger's box, where even Wigners friend is in juxtaposition. I argue that "EXPECTATION AFFECTS COLLAPSE" which is further into a woo direction than the idea that consciousness causes collapse. Nevertheless the past does need to alter for some "Synchronicity" to occur.
    Just as the cat does not know it's fate we live based on expectation from ourselves mostly, but also we are influenced by expectation of those around us. We are never fully collapsed as matter because there is always another Wigner's friend around the corner collapsing the whole a bit more.

    Here is synchronicity according to Carl Jung,
    [video=youtube;BX_nMwYa-nw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX_nMwYa-nw[/video]

    For Synchronicity to be true then A or B from above is correct. Sigmund Freud shared many views on Synchronicity, Telepathy, etc, and Sigmund Freud would communicate telepathically with his sister. He later distanced himself from psi topics to keep the seriousness and respectability of psychoanalysis intact.

    So...

    I realize my opinion is not widely accepted as fact (YET), and my Nobel Prize for quantum Mechanics may need to wait a few years. I believe it is EXPECTATION that causes collapse. If you were to look inside Schrodingers cat box you will find what you are expecting. If you are expecting a live cat the cat will be alive. If you are expecting a dead cat the cat will be dead. This is my idea. It would explain synchronicity and miracles.

    If you believed in miracles then this would make more sense to you. Imagine you are drowning in the ocean and pray for a boat to come along and save you. All of a sudden a boat shows up and you are rescued, however that boat altered course the day before to avoid a storm. If this is a miracle then past has changed. This is not the best example, but look at any synchronicity and you will see past must change.

    The Scarab had to time it just right to enter the window at that time. History altering to suit present expectation.

    This thread belongs in Religion.

    I know how it sounds if you are a skeptic, but you are entitled to an opinion as well.
     
  10. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,724
    Sure, things get recycled all the time... we are stardust.
    I can buy recycled paper, that doesn't mean any of the info that was originally printed on that paper is still accessible. For that matter, paper used to be wood. Doesn't mean I can build a tree house from it.
    I have no kids. But even if I did, that's a long way from reincarnation. While I came from my parents, I am not them. They are different people.
    Yeah, I know what software is, I write the stuff for a living.
     
  11. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    2,724
  12. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ gmilam,
    Dr. Quantum is all you took rom that post. <Sigh>

    Actually my own view is a lot more controversial than Consciousness causing collapse, as I bring it further into "Expectation causes collapse".

    However, the Dr quantum videos do an excellent job of showing the experiments importance. The fact that people do not accept the results as strange or scary usually implies lack of understanding as to what has transpired.

    I would think that it is you that is the sucker, and you have been sucked into a narrow skeptic stance and are possibly incapable of perceiving beyond that. It is you who should be pitied. If you want to start in on me, I can safely say I wholeheartedly believe my stance(s) " A or B " as listed in my last post. I honestly feel sorry for skeptics for their lack of belief, and think they are silly for not attempting to explore their psychic nature.
     
  13. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    1,516
    As gmilan pointed out, atomically it's all recycled. But when you talk about reincarnation, that's not recycling, but reusing, as much of the previous life is maintained in some aspect. And that we don't find as much in the natural world, whereas decay and entropy we do.

    Granted you admit your example is not the best, but what if you hadn't prayed and the boat showed up anyway, or if you prayed and the boat never came? You attribute the connection with meaning something more than it is, as well as saying that one person's act can influence the effect of a greater number of other entities from a distance and even completely change the flow of time. Seems to me that the much simpler explanation is a lot easier to accept> As I said earlier, we make connections all the time that may or may not be there, because that's how evolution has hardwired us.

    It's a huge stretch to say that it's not that mistaken conclusion, but that prayers can influence the very fabric of space-time. How does the universe weight out conflicting prayers? Best of three?
     
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    2,724
    You mentioned him - not me.

    How do you propose that we test this silly idea?

    Or maybe they see that it is a totally untestable idea. Seriously, think about it. How can one possibly test or examine anything without observing it?

    And I feel sorry for the gullible and their willingness to buy into any hokey BS that comes along.
     
  15. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    According to Buddhism - yes. According to my Lucid dreams, YES...but no proof until we can do some serious digging like my lucid dreams about Oregon Trail...
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    4,785
    But that is not entirely true. Expectation (a state of anticipation, waiting ) cannot be not causal to a physical action. Prayers are personal processes and have no influence on the macroworld, which requires "energy" for action.
    Moreover, it ascribes omnipotence to humans, but not to animals. I find that highly unlikely and somewhat hubristic.

    I can, however agree with you that we can act in anticipation of an event and thereby influence the event itself. IMO, that is the small portion of Free Will allowed us. But that is not the same as "wishing something to happen". That's BIGGGGGGG stuff there.....

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  17. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    4,659
    No, I don't think so.

    The basic underlying question here might be: what kind of thing do we think that a "person" is.
     
  18. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    4,659
    It's true that life doesn't originate anew each time a new "person" is conceived. Life is continuous through time, extending back through our parents to the original one-celled ancestors of all of today's life. Seen four-dimensionally, with time imagined as if it was another spatial dimension, life would kind of resemble a tree. So yeah, in that sense, all living things that have ever lived on Earth seem to be related to one another in a literal familial sense, parts of the same larger life-phenomenon.

    But having said that, I don't think that kind of observation is really all that relevant to questions of our own personal identity.
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    It's mathematically possible. Estimates of the total number of humans who have lived since the inception of the species Homo sapiens range from more than fifty billion to more than one hundred billion. So there are more than enough "souls" from the past to inhabit all of the current bodies.

    Human population figures since 70KYA (thousand years ago), when there was a quantum increase in the complexity of human activity, which some anthropologists say must have correlated with the invention of the technology of language:
    • 70KYA: 15,000
    • 12KYA: 1M
    • 11KYA: 3M
    • 10KYA: 5M
    • 9KYA: 7M
    • 8KYA: 10M
    • 7KYA: 15M
    • 6KYA: 20M
    • 5KYA: 25M
    • 4KYA: 35M
    • 3KYA: 50M
    • 1CE: 200M
    • 1000CE: 300M
    • 1750CE: 800M
    • 1800CE: 1B
    • 1920CE: 2B
    • 1950CE: 3B
    • 1975CE: 4B
    • 1987CE: 5B
    • 2000CE: 6B
    • 2010CE: 7B
    (From Wikipedia with a little simplification)

    You don't have to go back that far: only 200 years.

    Is your consciousness leaking karma through its faucets?

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    • Christian fundamentalists believe that a person is a unique and extraordinary type of animal which has a "soul" that magically continues to exist after the body dies and the synapses where all thought, memories and personality exist have degraded irreversibly.
    • Hindus believe that humans are not so different from other animals and that our "souls" transfer into another newly born/hatched creature after we die. If you've been very good it might end up in the body of the beloved, pampered baby of a wealthy yet kind and generous family. If you've been a real jerk you could be reincarnated as a dung beetle. Then if that dung beetle leads a virtuous life, he can be reincarnated as a weasel, and eventually your "soul" might find its way into another human body for a second chance at being virtuous.
    • Some Buddhists believe in reincarnation. My wife, an American Buddhist, does not. In fact she insists that the teachings of the Buddha do not require his followers to espouse any supernatural or miraculous beliefs at all, although neither does he forbid them.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    No, I mentioned the mind, which is a product of the brain, programmed by culture. I don't consider it to be a real thing with any existence separate from the brain, since it is a description of what the brain does.
     
  21. Tamorph Registered Member

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    16
    It may seem like it sometimes, but I don't think so.

    I'm retired and I've travelled many places and seen many things. Add to that all the places I've dreamt about or imagined every time I have read a book or seen a film, and the number of places in my mind is enormous. I've even read science fiction, and as I've read the books I've imagined the places and pictured them in my mind.

    The older I get, the more likely I am likely to think I've been somewhere before, but that feeling has no evidential value whatsoever.
     
  22. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    2,274
    Because very often it is. If you hand me a box and tell me that there's a gold coin inside, lack of a gold coin in the box(i.e. a lack of evidence) is evidence of the absence of that gold coin. Similarly, if I shake the box an absence of noise would be evidence that the gold coin is, in fact, absent from the box. You can argue that this analogy fails because "looking for god/the soul/[insert supernatural phenomenon here] isn't the same thing as looking for a coin in a box", but it is. The only real difference is that the box we have to search is much larger.

    Because it didn't exist a million years ago. Thanks for providing me with yet another example of absence of evidence equalling an absence of evidence.
     
  23. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    1,621
    Maybe and this is a big maybe, we think we have lived before because of our ancestral DNA memory.
     

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