Harry Potter Star Afshan Azad Attacked by Father, Brother in attempted Honor Killing

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Jul 3, 2010.

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  1. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Why, do you have a problem tolerating Islam?
     
    spidergoat, Jul 4, 2010
    #21

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  3. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    (Insert Title Here)

    So I wasn't the only one who noticed? Thank you for making the point. I was failing to find any expression that wasn't grotesque with sarcasm.
     
    Tiassa, Jul 4, 2010
    #22

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  5. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Don't know. How many attempted murders? would be a little more apt (or at least the extremity of physical domestic assault). I think the question is a bit more specific, however: how many UK fathers have attempted to murder their daughters for dating outside their religion?
     
    GeoffP, Jul 5, 2010
    #23

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  7. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think anyone missed that aspect, actually. If your issue is with labels, then I agree: dispense with them. Call it what it is: attempted murder, or simple physical abuse. I think the article called it "actual physical harm"; I don't know the state of her injuries beyond that.
     
    GeoffP, Jul 5, 2010
    #24
  8. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    No idea. How many UK fathers do assault their daughters or threaten them for dating outside of their religion or ethnic circle for that matter? It only seems to be reported when it's Muslims, but I am willing to bet there are plenty of threats in white households if the daughter is found to be dating a "Paki" for example..

    Ah.

    Interesting though, isn't it?

    How this is being viewed as an "attempted honor killing" because with honor killings, it normally occurs because the killer is supposedly attempting to regain the honor their family has lost due to the child's or relative's actions. In this case, the child starred in a movie about witchcraft, played a non-Muslim who was obsessed with boys... Won't even mention the idolatry of Potter himself or Dumbledore for that matter...

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    Honor killing does not fit in this little saga, does it?
     
    Bells, Jul 5, 2010
    #25
  9. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe and maybe not. How about some statistics of crime by religion or ethnicity, then?

    It does if the family draws a "Religion Line" at her "Dating Circle".

    Obscure reference: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
     
    GeoffP, Jul 5, 2010
    #26
  10. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    TV news is "The News For People Who Can't Read." Cable TV news is the news for people who can't quite understand the news on broadcast TV.
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Jul 5, 2010
    #27
  11. Hipparchia

    Hipparchia Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. The father was charged with threatening to kill her. The brother was charged with threatening to kill her and with assault leading to actual bodily harm. As far as I am aware neither the courts, nor the police called this domestic violence - they called it threatening to kill and assault.

    You choose to call it domestic violence because that is what assaults on women are called in our culture. Others have called it an attempted honour killing because that is what it is called in the culture to which assailants and victim belong. Why is this a problem for you?
     
    Hipparchia, Jul 5, 2010
    #28
  12. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    The issue is the terms used by the reporting media.
     
    GeoffP, Jul 5, 2010
    #29
  13. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Seemingly obvious

    How do you feel about similar leaps? The United States, for instance, proclaims itself capitalist. Many people presume the war in Iraq was about oil and money. Would you accept so easily headlines that said, "America Invades Iraq for Fun and Profit"?

    It seems to me—and maybe I'm wrong on this—that you disdain such presumptuous outlooks of the war, and often despite statements by policymakers such as the one about how Iraq was swimming in oil.

    Our culture has an active tradition of tampering with other nations for disingenuous reasons including racism, supremacism, and economic interest.
     
    Tiassa, Jul 5, 2010
    #30
  14. Gustav

    Gustav Banned Banned

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    bells's comparisons maybe apt by our standards but not necessarily theirs.
    for instance.... the pic: she is modestly clad, the movies: idolatry is at best an obscure and abstract tenet of islam easily discarded when faced with a fat paycheck, the boy: a hindu with all the attendant baggage.

    adopt their pov and grade each "transgression"
     
    Gustav, Jul 6, 2010
    #31
  15. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Just said that.
     
    GeoffP, Jul 6, 2010
    #32
  16. Gustav

    Gustav Banned Banned

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    oh
    pardon
     
    Gustav, Jul 6, 2010
    #33
  17. Gustav

    Gustav Banned Banned

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    wtf?

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    eating pussy eh?
    off with your cute head!
     
    Gustav, Jul 6, 2010
    #34
  18. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    But that would not give a proper representation of this category of crime.


    I am not defending the father and brother. What I am querying is whether everyone is jumping on the 'because he's a Hindu' argument because it sounds better or suits the public's way of thinking or viewing Muslims at the present time. What many do not realise is that honor killing occurs in many cultures, not just Muslim.

    This story also applies to what we deem to be domestic violence. But an attempted honor killing? Let me put it this way, if she had been white, and her father also white and not Muslim , there not be "attempted honor killing" in the thread title.
     
    Bells, Jul 6, 2010
    #35
  19. madanthonywayne

    madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Is this a unique attribute of our culture? It sure seems like you're implying that it is. But, in reality, the same could be said for every powerful nation in history.
     
    madanthonywayne, Jul 6, 2010
    #36
  20. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I think that's meant to be a gang sign.

    So collect statistics on race or ethnicity vis-a-vis this category of crime. I'm sorry, I thought that was implicit in the suggestion.

    I wasn't implying in any way that you were defending them. I don't know that everyone is "jumping on" "the Hindu" argument; but if it's the actual rationale for the attack by the father and brother, then wouldn't you consider it fair to mention? I realize this occurs in many cultures; if we're going to discuss its prevalence WRT a purported greater societal incidence rate then the above is what we'd need to know.

    I suppose not. But there would also be no "attempted honor killing" in the title if there had been no explicity history of legal leniency for this offense in Syria and Jordan, to begin with. The title might be somewhat sensationalist, but it seems also to be grounded in an appreciation of the near-legal sanction of such domestic violence - up to and including murder - in at least two Islamic nations. The headline is brute, unrefined.
     
    GeoffP, Jul 6, 2010
    #37
  21. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Another obvious point

    You find nothing unique about the scale of our power, or place in the world hierarchy?
     
    Tiassa, Jul 6, 2010
    #38
  22. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    We have no proof that she had been threatened or assaulted to protect the family's honor. Do you have said proof aside from a dubious thread title?

    Hmmm...

    Now, aside from the title, has the father and brother abused and threatened her for bringing dishonor to the family for dating a Hindu? Or just because she's dating outside of her religious circle, which does happen quite a bit in religious families..

    Thus far, all we know is that her family objected to her dating outside of the religious circle. Their threats and assault upon her person could be a domestic fight gone bad and not the actual planning or decision to kill or harm her for bringing dishonor upon the family for dating a Hindu. Do you get what I mean about the difference? Let me put it this way..

    Father says to daughter: "I forbid you from dating that boy! He is not even Catholic"..

    Daughter to father: "His religion means nothing to me"..

    Father's reply: "Your grandmother would be turning in her grave if she knew you were dating a Muslim".. - slaps daughter across face and threatens to turn her face back to front if she does not do as he says..

    That conversation took place when my very racist and bigotted uncle (biological aunt's husband) confronted his daughter when she started dating a Muslim boy (whom she later married and they have two lovely children together). It caused a scandal in the family and he left his family home in disgust when he realised that his daughter was not going to stop seeing the non-Catholic Muslim boy.

    Is this an attempted honor killing? I don't think so. More along the lines of a domestic violence issue with a stupid bigot for a father who ended up dying alone as none of his daughters ever forgave him for what he did. The only difference between my family and this girl's family is that my uncle and cousin are not Muslim. If they were and this had occured in today's political atmosphere, it could be labelled as such. And incorrectly so.

    I am not saying that honor killings do not occur. Quite the contrary. What I am saying is that we should not be so quick to label everything as such. Do you know why? Because women who are in danger of such crimes might rebel that their religion or culture is being demeaned in such a fashion and these women might need help but won't turn to the society who could help them because she may feel further victimised.

    Ah, but the leniency is not just there. Read the papers. There are problems in policing and adequately sentencing domestic violence offenders in the West as well.. Even when it comes to honor killings, the police in the West have been known to not act when they should have:

    See what I mean?

    We may say we don't tolerate it, but sometimes, depending on the police officer who responds, they might think that it's acceptable for a husband, father or other relative to beat the shit out of the wife or woman - because you know - keep them in their place and all.

    And frankly, the toleration of such practices is not synonimous to ME countries:

    See what I mean?

    My concern is that the headline is trying to convey something that may actually not be there. If it is an attempted honor killing, then it is still as much of a crime as domestic violence. In other words, making this special demeans other similar crimes that falls under 'domestic violence'.. All should be treated equally. But because of how 'they be Muslim's and all'.. well... best to sensationalise it that little bit more.. You know.. honor killing grabs one's attention. But domestic violence we just shrug and go 'meh'..

    But I guess if they lived in Columbia for example, and he did not premeditate his attack on her, there wouldn't be any issues.
     
    Bells, Jul 6, 2010
    #39
  23. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    (Insert Title Here)

    Interestingly, a couple days ago, Afshan Azad asked the courts to drop the charges.

    Afshan Azad, 22, who has appeared in four of the blockbuster movies as Padma Patil, doesn't want to see her family members locked up as a result of an incident at her home in Manchester.

    Her father Abdul Azad, 54, and brother Ashraf Azad, 28, both of Longsight in Manchester, allegedly made a threat against Afshan's life during a bust-up about her boyfriend.

    Ashraf Azad is also accused of assaulting his sister causing her actual bodily harm.

    John Wolfson, lawyer for the accused, claimed yesterday that Miss Azad doesn't want the case to proceed.

    'The actress has tried on three occasions to retract her statement and has pleaded with the Crown Posecution Service not to proceed with the matter,' he said.

    'This is a desperately sad situation. She never wanted her father or brother locked up.'

    (Daily Mail)​

    After achieving bail, some five weeks following the incident, Ashraf Azad spoke to the press:

    Speaking at the family’s semi-detached home at the time, her brother Ashraf, a customer services adviser, said: ‘We are going to get trouble from the community now. It is bad news for our safety, her safety.

    ‘My younger brother is going to get harassed at college. All our family is going to be harassed by the community because of this.

    ‘Her career could be ruined. When she goes to a premiere or something, they are going to ask her about this not about the film.’

    (ibid)​

    Some might suggest that Afshan Azad is simply empowering a domestic abuser, and it might be true. However, a couple of interesting details from the Daily Mail report. As noted above, the father and brother "allegedly made a threat against Afshan's life during a bust-up about her boyfriend". Now, just speaking as a writer, that changes the context somewhat. During a bust-up? Perhaps blows were struck on both sides, and words exchanged in the heat of the moment. Certainly, though, we might note that the Mail has backed off the "honor killing" rhetoric.

    Additionally, the Mail notes, "Her family is originally from Bangladesh though both her parents were born and educated in the UK."

    This only adds a further degree of presumption to the "attempted honor killing" argument. Certainly, generational disputes about such things as religion and a child's lover are as common in British society as American, but, as the family involved is Muslim, this can't possibly be the case. It must necessarily be an "attempted honor killing".

    Imagine for a moment that it is not an abused child excusing her abusers that moved Ms. Azad to attempt to withdraw the charges, but rather the flurry of presumptuous, racist news delighting in exaggerating the incident into something it's not for the sake of a sensational headline.

    If the Crown goes forward, perhaps we will eventually learn the details. And perhaps it will emerge that this was an "attempted honor killing". Or it might turn out to be just another case of boring, disgraceful domestic violence that society doesn't really give a damn about.

    Meanwhile, in celebrity "bust-up" news, Spice Girl Geri Halliwell apparently went after her boyfriend on the beach after he turned to get a second glance at a scantily-clad woman emerging from a black Ferrari. No "attempted honor killing" here, just an ugly and embarrassing public row.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Daily Mail. "Harry Potter actress pleads with police to drop charges against father and brother who 'threatened to kill her'". Mail Online. July 3, 2010. DailyMail.co.uk. July 5, 2010. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...leads-police-drop-charges-father-brother.html

    Johnson, Chris. "Geri Halliwell in holiday bust-up with Henry Beckwith after she clocks him ogling woman". Mail Online. July 5, 2010. DailyMail.co.uk. July 5, 2010. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-bust-Henry-Beckwith-clocks-ogling-woman.html
     
    Tiassa, Jul 6, 2010
    #40
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