Happy Australia Day

Discussion in 'History' started by paddoboy, Jan 25, 2020.

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  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    54% TO 45% is just more then half as illustrated by one poll of which there is only a small sample. Still no good reason to change for the reasons I have stated previously and you so ingeniously ignored.
    No its not and I dare say that the barely just more then half [according to some poll you dug up] of indigenous folk are also unable to agree on a date.
    Yes you did and I also said

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    you were dishonest.
    Now if you can't see that and need to again attempt some cover up you go right ahead....
    you said....POST 16:
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The last post of mine illustrated the dishonesty of James, and the desperation he shows in raising off subject issues...something he has pinned many others for.....
    Lets start.....James said....post 5:
    I replied post 6....
    James then in his first act of desperation said....POST 16
    I then pointed out that James was wrong in inferring [which i have no doubt he'll try and wiggle his way out of]that I did not care or was not concerned by the plight of our indigenous brothers, illustrated quite clearly in post 6

    Incredible how a thread started simply to help celebrate Australia Day, can be so dishonestly screwed up with lies and inuendo on my person, as well as off topic slurs by the forum administrator.
    You James ought to be ashamed of yourself. You may see yourself as some knight in shining armour, riding for popular causes etc, but due to the lies, inuendo, and slurs. This all being posted by someone with no indigenous friends!!!, I see you as something else entirely and of which I do not have much respect for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Óne of the great songs they often play on the jukebox at my local [the one with a rather large contingent of indigenous drinkers is the following, probably politically incorrect song...but they love it...
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    The poll results, one of which I referred to above, are actually quite interesting when you drill down into the results. They are even more interesting when you look at the methodology. All of these polls, by the way, are from 2019.

    paddoboy will be pleased to learn that one poll was run on behalf of the Institute of Public Affairs, a right-wing think tank and lobby group that, among other things, refuses to say who funds it (fossil fuel companies are strongly suspected to be the major donors). Another was run by Advance Australia, a right-wing nationalist group. A third was run by the progressive Australia Institute. A fourth was run by an essentially neutral source, Essential Polling.

    The overall results?

    IPA poll: of 1000 Australians, 75% agreed that "Australia day should be celebrated on 26 January", with 10% disagreeing.

    Advance Australia poll: of 1659 people, 71% answered "no" to the question "Do you believe we should change the date of Australia day from 26 January to some other day?", and 29% answered "yes".

    The Australia Institute poll: of 1417 people, 56% agreed with the statement "I don't mind when we hold Australia Day, as long as we have a day to celebrate being a nation.", while 36% disagreed.

    The Essential Polling poll asked "Australia Day is celebrated annually on 26 January, which is the anniversary of the 1788 arrival of the First Fleet of British ships at Sydney Cove, New South Wales. Would you support or oppose changing the date on which Australia Day is celebrated?" 54% of people were opposed to changing the date, while 26% were in favour.
    ----

    As you can see, the questions that were put by the pollsters were all a little different. The IPA and Advance Australia hold up their results as evidence that a significant majority of people support the 26 January date. The Essential Poll, on the other hand, has a rather narrow majority in favour of retaining the 26 January date, while the Australia Institute says that a majority of Australian's aren't fussed about Australia day being held on 26 January.

    In particular, the difference between the results from the IPA/Advance Australia and the Essential poll are quite striking, since similar questions were asked in all three polls. How can we account for the apparent discrepancy in results?

    Part of the answer is in what information was given in the lead-up to asking the questions above, and what other questions were asked before this one. For instance, the IPA started by asking whether respondents were "proud to be Australian" (88% said yes), and whether Australia "has a history to be proud of" (76% said yes). Advance Australia started by asking people if they "feel proud to celebrate Australia Day on 26 January" (76% said yes). In follow-up questions to the one about the date, Advance Australia asked other questions about favoured pet topics of conservatives (e.g. "Do you believe Australia is becoming too politically correct?"). On the other hand, the Australia Institute had a long run of questions prior to the one about changing the date, interrogating people's feelings about January 26.

    Clearly, all three of these organisations are seeking to influence debate around the date of Australia Day. Their polling methods try to "prime" people to be more likely to answer in the way that best supports the agenda or values of the organisation conducting the poll.
    ----

    What useful information can be gleaned from these polls as a group, then? One significant finding that stands out is that most Australians don't know why Australia Day is celebrated on 26 January in the first place, nor are they aware that there has only been a national celebration on that date since 1940. The Australia Institute survey asked whether Australia Day had always been held on 26 January (77% incorrectly said yes). It also asked what historical event happened on that date (only 38% of people were able to identify the First Fleet).

    ---
    Yet another survey by the Social Research Centre polled 2167 people on the question "To what extent do you agree or disagree that January 26 is the best day for our national day of celebration?" 70% of respondents agreed/strongly agreed that 26 Janauary is the best date. Other interesting findings of that poll:
    • Support for 26 January increases with the respondent's age. It is 80% for Baby Boomers (aged 54-72 years), but only 47% for Generation Z (aged 23 or under).
    • Support for 26 January is higher among those who do not have university degree (75%, compared to 55%).
    • Support is higher in regional areas than it is in capital cities (78% vs. 66%).
    • The political divide is stark. Support for 26 January runs at 94% for One Nation voters (One Nation is a nationalist party full of racists), 85% among Liberal/National coalition voters (The coalition consists of two conservative parties, despite the name) voters, 62% among Labor voters (Labor is a centre-left party), and only 38% among Greens voters (the Greens are a leftist party focused on environmental issues).
    • Polled as to what they thought Australia day was about, 68% of respondents agreed that it celebrates the British heritage of Australia, 63% agreed that it celebrates democracy and our system of government, 58% agreed that that it celebrates the contributions of immigrants, and only 41% agreed that it celebrates Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and heritage.
    Interestingly, in this poll 46% of respondents agreed that Australia Day is offensive to Indigenous Australians. This is not 46% of indigenous respondents, mind you; it is 46% of all respondents. For comparison, the IPA poll put that figure at 37%, which isn't much lower.

    The bottom line to all of this is probably this:

    Nearly 3 in 10 (29%) of respondents who agree with keeping the 26 January date also recognise that the date is offensive to Indigenous Australians. In other words, while they are aware of Indigenous objections to the date, they don't care enough to want to change the date.

    Says it all, really.

    As a a final note, I'd say that paddoboy appears to fit rather neatly into the results summarised above, as an older (white) Australian who knows that the date is offensive to Indigenous people, although in his case he is willing to deny that in order to preserve the status quo.

    ---
    Sources for all of the above:
    http://theconversation.com/new-research-reveals-our-complex-attitudes-to-australia-day-110035
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/joshtaylor/australia-day-change-the-date-polling
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose most of you have heard the song "Waltzing Matilda"

    Not sung like this though...Quite refreshing!!
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    paddoboy:

    I don't think your reasons for wanting to retain the 26 January date have much to do with what Indigenous Australians want, even the ones you say are your friends. That's just my impression, mind you. I could be wrong.

    Do you really want to open that particular can of worms again? I don't, but we can if you want to discuss it again. You came out of our last discussion on such matters looking very bad. Do you really want to put yourself through that again?

    You'd probably be better off referring to what I actually wrote in that previous discussion we had, rather than making stuff up. Do you want me to dig up that old thread? Do you want to reopen that discussion?

    I won't comment on this until you give me your consent to reopening your sexist attitudes as a discussion topic. Please let me know. I'm extending you this courtesy because I feel like you had a hard time of it last time we tackled the issue head on. You seem very set in your ways and you're obviously unwilling to change your unwelcome behaviour. Nevertheless, I don't want to put you through the wringer again unless you're really keen.

    See my post above, in which I refer to 5 different polls. They make for interesting reading.

    Note, however, that most of these did not break down the responses according to whether respondents were indigenous or not. We would expect that in a random poll of 1500 people, about 50 of the respondents might be indigenous. On the other hand, socioeconomic factors might make the actual numbers polled lower than that.

    We'll have to wait and see, won't we? Attitudes are changing. You belong largely to a group of outdated dinosaurs when it comes to social awareness. It looks like a lot of the younger generation care a lot more about this stuff that you ever did. Granted, people tend to become more conservative as they grow older, and there's always the problem of a lack of education to contend with, so you might turn out to be right. We can always hope for gradual improvement though. I must say, though, it's hard to be optimistic in the current political climate. For now, you and your right-wing buddies have the upper hand.

    I don't know what you think you're celebrating, until you tell me. That's why I asked. See my post above where you will find some diversity in what polled Australians believe Australia Day is about. For many, I'd say it's just another public holiday and an excuse to have a beer or two and put some snags on the barbie.

    .... Actually, wait! I forgot. You told us all exactly what you were celebrating in your opening post. Here it is, in your own words:

    celebrating the making of a Nation with the landing of the first fleet lead by Capt Arthur Phillip at Sydney Cove, Port Jackson [now Circular Quay] in 1788​

    In other words, you wanted to remind us all that the Australian nation was "made" by white British people who first landed in Sydney in 1788. Since only 38% of respondents to the poll were aware of the significance of the 26 January date, you are wrong to assume that what they are celebrating is the same as what you're celebrating (proud British heritage and all that). See the poll results for what the rest of your fellow Australians think.

    I accept that I did not give enough weight to your two words "Yep, acknowledged", which I assume you meant to convey what you've written here.

    My motivation for commenting in the first place in this thread was that your triumphalism regarding the British occupation of Australia grated on me, given my awareness of Indigenous attitudes to the landing of the First Fleet, the idea of Terra Nullius and the rest.

    After a little prodding, it turns out that you are proud to celebrate all of that, despite your professed sympathies for the plight of Australia's indigenous peoples.

    Nothing I have said in this thread has been dishonest. I may have got a couple of things slightly wrong, but nobody is perfect. I do not set out to deceive people.

    You speak of popular causes. Take a look at the polls I mentioned above. In light of those, would you say that changing the date of Australia Day is a popular cause? From where I'm sitting, I'd say it's looking decidedly unpopular. Never mind that it's probably the right thing to do.

    Do you think that if I had indigenous friends it would make an iota of difference to what the polls say, or to the debate as to whether it would be appropriate to change the date? I agree that I might well be influenced by my friend's views if they were directly impacted. But you can't conclude that I'm wrong simply on the basis that I lack that kind of direct input. If you have 10 indigenous friends, their combined views on Australia Day only add 10 additional data points to the ones already collected in the surveys I have cited. Their views shouldn't be given special status or importance, though I can understand why you might be influenced by them.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I'll at this time ignore the obvious James and just reinforce the fact that the majority support the status quo, including a large number of indigenous folk. It maybe offensive to some and probably also offensive to whites that need to push some new cause and obtain that warm inner glow when achieved.
    I'll also again state the obvious that the 26th January will always be that day of celebration.
    I maybe an old fart James but I do have plenty of indigenous friends and have a bad habit [in your opinion] of telling it like it is and not just swallow some new thought up political correct nonsense that will never see the light of day.
    I'm all for progressive, beneficial change...
    Stuff like supporting the Australian Constitution and a treaty recognising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples, as
    Inigenous folk are still not recognised in the Australian Constitution as Australia’s First Peoples. This needs to change.
    So James, stop wasting your time pushing some minor issue that lacks total support and get your teeth into that! I do believe this is in line with the next Labor gov.

    Australia Day should be about celebrating the country's achievements and how far it has come.
    Proudly, this old fart did that James, and more.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You appear rather delusional James, much like river and MR.
    You want to open that thread and somehow pretend that I looked foolish, be my guest. But I see you looking far more foolish in this thread as well as "making things up"or just plain lies as I prefer to call it.
    Let me reconfirm it again. My stance in the thread has not changed one iota, in fact it has been reinforced every day. I have already given one account.
    My stance by the way, before you chose to "make up stuff" is [1] casual, everyday talk and addressing people with terms such as love dear, and maybe even sweety. I'm sure the female ambo was not trying to rape my wife when she addressed her that way. the second point is that in cases the roles are reversed....A fact James despite what you want to make up...not quite as frequent with male sexual assaults but as per the examples I gave, it is and does happen.
    I had a great AD James, although only one idigenous friend was present.
    Oh, before I forget, around 30 years ago I brought the wife's Mum and Dad out to Australia, Took the old bloke down to the Matto Hotel for a few and while drinking, he nodded to the bar and said to me "Hey Kei Viti!!" meaning Hey some Fijians!!
    I laughed and pointed out to him that they were indigenous boys.
    Next minute they came over introduced themselves [I did know one] and proceeded to pepper the old man with questions about Fiji. We both got into shit James for arriving home to late, me especially!!
    Come into the real world James!!
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    What you think James, is about as relevant as what river and MR think. And yes you are both wrong and lying in parts of your answers.
    This from a bloke who has never met an indigenous person!

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  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You really are a laugh a minute James. You need to be big enough and ugly enough to accept that a person need not blindly follow and accept some label. I don't and never will and take things on their merit.
    All that and much more that you chose to sweep under the carpet as it does your cause no good.
    I find a lack of sincerity in what you are saying, but hey, I maybe wrong.
    Apologies for not answering these earlier, I am starting to sweep over your threads due to their length, repeated nonsense and the usual attempts to get out from under, and/or make stuff up.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article...-yothu-yindi-support-australia-day-january-26

    I want to change my people’: Yothu Yindi support Australia Day on January 26

    One of the band’s founders said he does not support protests on the national holiday or changing the date.
    By
    Greg Dunlop

    Source:
    NITV News
    16 JAN 2019 - 9:26 PM UPDATED 16 JAN 2019 - 9:26 PM
    Yothu Yindi have called for “unity” as debate about the most appropriate date to celebrate Australia Day has reignited.

    The Arnhem Land band will be performing as part of official festivities organised by the NSW state government.

    The Indigenous music group are famous for their 1991 protest anthem Treaty, the first song to hit the mainstream music market in any Aboriginal Australian language.

    Witiyana Marika, Yothu Yindi co-founder, said it was a “privilege” to be a part of the January 26 program.

    “We want to celebrate unity and redemption,” he told NITV.

    “For me, I’d like to celebrate ‘cause of my survival… I’ve got my black power culture that I still carry on.”
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    paddoboy:

    It's a little sad. I think that, by and large, your heart's often in the right place. But when it comes to digging in and trying to defend the indefensible, you're often your own worst enemy. Being older and having nostalgia for the traditions of the old days won't ever excuse a bad attitude or sub-standard behaviour, even if those attitudes and behaviours were tolerated by a majority in days gone by. Trying to defend poor behaviour with references to "political correctness gone mad" and similar just tends to expose your contempt for important contemporary social issues.

    This isn't just about you. You just happen to be an example of a certain class of man who is front of us here and now. There are many men just like you who will no doubt agree with you wholeheartedly in your sexist views and your dismissal of concerns over things such the date of Australia day. They appear in the polls I mentioned, skewing the results away from what ought to be done towards preserving their own interests and status.

    I kind of feel bad every time I make an example of you. But you so often insist on doubling down. It is only by speaking out against the kinds of ingrained attitudes that you have that we can hope to change the world for the better. The first step is raising awareness. I apologise if, in the process of using your posts as an example, you end up getting hurt. However, you can't say I didn't warn you.

    You really don't understand what the fuss is about regarding the date of Australia Day, do you? You probably wonder why I'm banging on about an issue that is of very low importance in your world. For my part, I am keenly aware that this isn't really my argument to make, either. But indigenous Australians are thin on the ground on sciforums.

    Always is a very long time. You might be surprised.

    26 Jan wasn't the day in the past, and I'm guessing that at some point in the future, sooner or later, it won't be again.

    No surprise at all that you regard this as political correctness gone mad. It's consistent behaviour for you - a failure to recognise that there's a problem that needs addressing.

    If it were to become clear to you that a majority of Indigenous Australian object to 26 January as the date on which Australia Day is celebrated, would you then support a change of the date? It sounds like you wouldn't, given your stick-in-the-mud prediction that the date will "always" stay the same.

    This is what I mean when I say that often your heart is in the right place. What is missing is the consistency: if this, then also that. A half-hearted support for indigenous recognition is better than no support at all, but consistent support would be better still.

    Change only ever happens when minorities push for things that lack majority support. If people didn't waste their time on such things, women would not have the vote, schools would still have racial segregation, slavery would still be a thing in America, women would be even less represented in Parliament and the professions than they currently are, etc. etc.

    I don't disagree with that. I can't speak for what you did or didn't do, of course. As an Australian, there's a lot to be proud of. There are also a lot of things to be ashamed of.

    It's laughable that you would try to compare me to those guys. You really have no idea if you think there are any parallels there. Hopefully, you're not quite as stupid as you make out and this was just your weak attempt at an insult.

    I think that, for now, I'll settle for merely linking to the previous thread. You are on record there, as I am. I invite readers to judge the matter of sexism for themselves, if they haven't already seen this and are interested enough to take a look:

    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/punishing-women-for-false-accusation-of-rape.162149

    Good for you.

    Already there, paddoboy. Looks like I see it more clearly than you do. Probably too late for you to take the blinkers off now, I'm guessing.

    Again, I'd urge you to be a better discriminator regarding who you choose to pay attention to. There are important and obvious differences between myself and either river or MR. You only have to look. If you think we're all equivalent, you're not looking nearly carefully enough. Switch on your brain.

    Both of whom? Our answers to what? Where are the lies? What are you on about now?

    Who? What?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    There it is, from the horse's mouth...

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  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And the dishonesty, misinterpretation and taking out of context continues. What I said...
    ps; I did add a comma after "will" as it seems James' understanding is faulty, despite obviously the "and" after the "will" explains what was being conveyed.

    In reply to another slur from the forum professional slurrer.....

    I said far more then that James and your continued misinterpretations James. Here it is, in context.....
    Prodding?? What prodding is that James? The OP conveys that I am certainly a proud Australian, and my immediate acknowledgment of you raising the "Invasion" aspect and dissatisfaction by some. Or is this just more of the James R methodology....slurs, misinterpretations, insults etc
    More to come James. There is plenty of your attempts at misrepresentations to clear up.......
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Total bullshit and crap James and simply a token of your own opinion and views. Suck it up young fella, the facts are that [1] Australia Day will remain as the 26th Jan, while hopefully and certainly, more progress will be undertaken for the beneficial of our indigenous folk, with the advent of a Labor government, and [2] Casual and everyday Aussie talk such as love, sweety, darl's, etc, by both sexes will continue, not just with my generation, but those that follow, and is evident in general lifetime experiences and the examples I have given. To lump such triviality with sexual assault, is nothing more then over the top, crazy reactionary nonsense. Perhaps you and one or two others, need to take a leaf out of weg's book, and the general even handed and unbiased approach and opinions she often speaks on and raises, particularly in the misogeny and misandry thread.

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    Oh stop it James, you aint fooling me. You once PMéd me with the same nonsensical nonsense and bias with regards to a warning you gave me when I called another a ratbag or similar, and then proceeded to justify that same arsehole for calling me similar earlier in the same thread.
    Let me sum up your position James, and that of at least one other. You seem to need to want to forcefully mould and change any alternate opinion to your own mind set at any and all costs, much as do some of our religious nuts do, but with far more innuendo, slurs and insults. This is why at least two others here will always fail to "take you on" irrespective on their stance. And I don't blame them actually. You may control the forum James, but this is simply an insignificant part of the world out there and which I invite you to join.
    I know exactly what you are banging on about James. You are forcefully trying to sway opinions that Australia Day should be changed, when only half of indigenous folk themselves see that need, and most probably those that do see that need, along with yourself, will still be arguing than about what date it should be. Bottom line, it wont happen and there are far more important indigenous issues that need attending to. While indigenous folk maybe thin on the ground on this forum, this forum is also thin on the ground as far as general society is concerned, and most people of all color and creed, have never heard or sen it.
    Maybe, perhaps, agreed, but I'm fairly confident with it remaining.
    Its been the 26th since the post was years I think, and anyway, was never really taken to such degrees of celebrations and ceremonies until around the 80's from memory. Aussies have never really been one to raise the roof re Australia Day until relatively recent times.
    I see it more of the usual from you in forcing your way of thinking on others, and aligning with whatever populist political correct nonsense that some goon may dream up. Not all but some...
    It won't happen James. But on the off chance that at least 75 to 80% of the indigenous population did agree, plus the vast majority of imported folk, then sure...wouldn't worry me too much then. You know James, there are also some extremists that have nonsensical take with regards ANZAC Day.
    Nonsense. One issue is important for all indigenous folk and most imported folk, the other has piecemeal support. Put your efforts to something worthwhile James.
    I'm all for reasonable change James, and always have been. I just gave you one important one re our indigenous folk. I'm all for Women being in parliament, being CEO's, carpenters, Plumbers, footballers, cricketers, or whatever they chose in their fight for equality...note equality, not superiority.

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    I'm on record as saying that.
    Not really half as stupid as you comparing me to a sexist.

    My views and those of the general populace remain as is, and as I have listed Mysogeny and mysandry both exist. Male chauvinism exists..female chauvinism exists. Neither have anything to do with casual banter between ordinary folk in ordinary situations...you know James, me calling a shop assistant love, a bank teller calling me sweet, a female Ambo calling the Mrs darling.
    You didn't? Sorry about that.

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    You comfort yourself with that delusional belief James. My eyesight is unhindered and my view reasonable and will not be moulded to your way of thinking.
    Seems I hit a raw nerve there James. And there is also no similarities between me and any chauvinistic sexist person. Got it ol friend?[/QUOTE]
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    continued:
    With regards to some of your opinions re what you mistakenly thought I said...the stuff I accused you as lying about, and which you simply put down as an error??
    Going through the thread there are probably three or four examples? Would you like me to list them again?
    James R
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    My views and those of the general populace remain as is, and as I have listed Mysogeny and mysandry both exist. Male chauvinism exists..female chauvinism exists. Neither have anything to do with casual banter between ordinary folk in ordinary situations...you know James, me calling a shop assistant love, a bank teller calling me sweet, a female Ambo calling the Mrs darling.
    Comparing you to MR and river appears to really have hit a raw nerve. But agreed probably rather poor insults, when compared to the forum mastermind and purveyor of insults, slurs, misinterpretations, apparent lies etc
    Take a bow James.

    ps: Oh yes, I did forget...you did give a half hearted apology/withdrawal/admittance to some of what I'm referring to James.
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    "Initially, despite its less-than-flattering treatment of the Aboriginals, Australian record-buyers apparently had no problem with the original "black in the face" version; musicologist David Kent has calculated it reached #1 there in December 1962 (a copy of the record has been archived by Music Australia).

    By 2015, however, times had changed, and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation banned the song, after a listener complained that it was racist." wiki
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for that Q...As I did mention, it could be inferred as politically incorrect even by 60's standards....still I have indigenous friends that love it.
    Other obviously politically incorrect songs....Island girl, Elton John [still played today btw....
    offending lyrics...
    Island girl, what you wanting with the white man's world
    Island girl, black boy want you in his island world”...

    and another some may not be too familiar with..."There coming to take me away ha ha by Napolean XIV
    here....


    And how's about Rod Stewarts, Tonight's the Night?
    "Don’t say a word, my virgin child, just let your inhibitions run wild"
     
  23. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    I actually found lengthy lists of allegedly politically incorrect songs. Apparently, the Rolling Stones have several. I was really surprised by the list.
     
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