Then, this means that the maximum you may claim is seven. Fourteen is your guess and useless in this discussion. All of this seven reference is cute and neat and whatnot. But it is more likely that seven is the total number of hangers, there is no reason that they'd double the number seven for any important ship function if seven is an important number. Seven Halos, Seven on a cheek, Seven plasma projectors...so why break the pattern to put in fourteen hangers? Just because it sounds neater to you? Nope, by your own post, the designers have referenced seven hangers, and that's all you can prove. Have you seen the South Park episode where Cartman frames Kyle for the 9/11 attack? He uses a string of coincidental numbers and summations similar to this to support his illogical argument. Again, a versus argument encompassing two scifi works that are not yours are not subject to the whims and fancies you'd like to place into it (this applies to anyone outside the creative and production process). You use the tenets and facets of the stories you see or read, not what you think sounds neater. Q has no reason to kill all life (esp since he is powerful enough to affect any single species), and neither was there any Trek precident where the Q Continuum would even consider such an option. You cannot assume such. Matter of fact, it would seem that the Q Continuum are preservers of life, or else Q would not have been authorized to intervene in the last episode of STTNG. Well then, this sounds almost exactly like the Borg. However, you have not shown me that the Covenant turns every inductee into a battle ready soldier. Matter of fact, from what I've read, the Covenant is divided into many roles, inclusive of politics and engineering. Their trillions of inductees are not all battle ready...matter of fact, the engineers are "extremely apathetic to combat". This will give the Borg superiority of troops since all drones are battle ready. Is this widely regarded by Halo fans, or is this widely regarded by Halo canon history? And whether this is canon or not, this seems to support my argument that it is likely that the Forerunners suck at genetic engineering. Humans today have barely scratched the surface of true genetic engineering, and this is completely immaterial to extrapolations of what another race would be capable of in the future. Sigh. Terraforming, mettalurgy, political prowess, weapons of mass destruction are completely different achievements and have no bearing on either biological and genetic manipulation or applied nanotechnology. Unless (as with the hangers) you can provide a creator quote, an ingame example or a book reference, there is no weapon that uses genetic nanobots (a la STVOY) as a payload in Halo. Why is it that you accuse me of sounding the ravenous fanboy, yet you commit yourself to the same description?
The Humans use Titanium-A, which is a fictional varient of today's titanium. The Coevnent have shields up 24/7, which can't be said of the Borg. A Covenent ship suvived a high speed impact with an asteroid while chasing the PoA in the Battle of Reach. The ship was about 70% intact after the battle.
It is said that they are imitative which is the key word. The Forerunners use 7 and mutiples of seven in their acrhitecture, and designs. The Coevenent picked up that kind of designing. Quite contray to what you think. If the Flood were created by the Forerunners, doesn't that kind of make it a dead give-a-way that they were experienced in GE? I mean, I have yet to see ST create a race of sentient creatures in a lab. Considering this, they could of been a bio-weapon that back fired. And the Forerunner as another race? Are you blind! The Humans ARE the Forerunners. Lets tally it up shall we? There is 343 saying on-board the Pillar of Auttumn that he was sifting through a record of all their lost time. Only Humans can become Reclaimers. The Ark is underneath the birth place of mankind. The Covenent not expecting a Human presence during the First Battle of Earth. John thought that the buttons on the Holographic panel looked familar, as it did to all spartans and Humans. The Monitors speak perfect English, as evidenced by Miranda and Johnson not needing to have a translation system to understand them. And terraforming does have something to do with GE. You have to modify the plant so that it grows on the surface. If the Forerunners terraformed planets all over the Galaxy, then why don't they have GE? Nanites would be required for the Halo's to repair eternal systems that the construction drones can't reach. Assuming that a race doesnt have something becuase you have never seen it is just real, real bad logic. And the Covenent have a reactors on their ships. That kind of implies that they have a some form of nuclear reaction going on inside the ship. Wheter it be Antimatter-Matter reactions, Fusion, or Fission, it stilll means they have been exposed to some kind of nuclear device. They have been exposed to their reactors for who knows how long. Saying they don't have sensors that can't pick-up 9 massive fusion warheads tied together is just strange. The Covenent do innovate but on a limted scale. For example, the needler on the Enforcer and the Covenent needler. The primary diffrence is that the Covenent one homes in. Plasma pistols likely didn't have an overcharge function when in the hands of the Forerunner.
You are correct and incorrect in some cases here 1. The Borg have shown the ability to ally or compromise if it suits their purposes at the time. Or else the Borg would have been subdued by Species 8472. 2. The Borg would indeed use a universe clash to attempt to assimilate any technology they do not already have. Whatever their alliance might be. 3. Expansive territory does not give a comparitive weapons and military personnel estimate. However, it would seem that only the Borg can match the Covenant in sheer numbers of manpower. 4. You assume a lot. While it is very true that a few Borg soldiers will indeed fall against a projectile weapon attack (or indeed any unfamiliar or even unexpected weapon attack), the first few shots will be all that'll be effective. Borg personal shielding adapt to any weapon; Captain Picard, Commander Data, Commander Worf, Commander Shelby, Captain Janeway, Commander Tuvok and Seven of Nine have all stated, implied or demonstrated this onscreen. Especially important here is Captain Picard's "First Contact" holodeck scene where he mutters that he only has a few shots at killing the Borg with the holographic tommygun. This "kinetic energy" shield is a Stargate inspired strawman, that is not applicable to the Borg.
This is crap, the Borg ships have demonstrated that it is perfectly capable of defending against projectile weapons. What do you think a torpedo is? You are only right in that it'll cost the Borg one or two ships before the shields adapt. The Borg would be facing a larger territory than theirs. That's all. You have not given any reference that the Covenant's military machine is 3 times as large as the Borg's. Unlike you and Halo, TW can provide actual numbers of soldiers available to the Star Wars Empire. It is very likely, according to the Halo Covenant write up that at least one third of the Covenant population are not soldiers, but politicians and engineers who do not engage in battle. Bungie and Halo unfortunately have not been around as long as wither Wars or Trek, and has had no time to arm you with enough canon evidence. This however does not allow you to make up your own. What does any of this have to do with Federation or Borg scanners? I have already stated that the Federation has much experience with both nuclear arms and cloaking technology. The Covenant's ineptitude(s) does not automatically lend to any Trek race. This is very very true. The Borg will not be ready for a MAC attack, and will likely lose a first few Cubes or Spheres or whatever before they adapt. This however, as they say, is irrelevant. The Borg ships will eventually become completely immune to such a weapon. Incorrect. Photon torpedos are next to ineffectual to a Borg ship. Transphasic torpedos however are effective, and quantum torpedoes to a lesser extent but these weapons do not depend on kinetic energy. You are attempting to reinvent science. Light travels at 186000 miles per second in a vacuum. A MAC round according to you is less than 8000mi per second. This is a mere FOUR percent of the speed of light. Actually 7440:186000 is exactly four percent; I imagine this was purposeful rather than serendipitous on the part of the Halo creators. This is a laughable velocity in Trek, and not even enough to be relevant to your above remark. Plus, you clearly have no data as to what Trek shields can withstand.
So the Borg can adapt to projectiles when we've countless episodes showing otherwise ( Data kicking a drones ass in hand to hand combat, a drone losing his head to a bat'leth.). Most episodes featuring it are against the adaption to projectiles or physical attacks. I think that what Picard said was referring to limited time or not alot of ammo ( I think he was using the model with the 50 round drum magazine, correct?). Regardless, it is cool to watch Picard go Capone on someone's ass. Speaking of which, I saw a guy who looked just like Picard in a Steak'n'Shake a few weaks ago.....
It would seem the Calculator online got the number wrong. I apparently entered 4 instead of .4. Anyway, I got 74,400 mile per second. Still don't think thats enough KE to shatter a ship?
You are grasping at straws. According to the designers' references there are seven docking bays. Fourteen is a guess fuelled by you. No it does not. Creatures that one grows in a lab that decide to 'eat' everyone, including its creators is tantamount to a catastrophic failure, related to complete inexperience in genetic engineering. Commander Data, Lore, Mrs. Soong (and arguably B4) - a race of four sentient androids, now extinct unfortunately. The Voyager's EMH and the Mark One Holograms. Flesh is not a prerequisite of sentience by the way. Structure your responses carefully, I had a tough time sifting thru this one. The human-Forerunner link is a fan-based interpretation hanging on 343's single sentence that only hints at the possibility. There is no canon evidence of the Forerunners being human or alien. Added to that there is absolutely zero canon evidence of Forerunners having directly descended from Earth humans - hence you cannot know that the development of science is the same. Hm...I grant that plants do require some basic genetic studies, however, this is a lower and primitive form of non-sentient animal fodder. Much easier to manipulate than a human or alien life form that Trek doctors accomplish on a regular basis. And certainly this is no indication that Forerunners have a clue of how to weaponize a nanoprobe device to destroy a particular chain of complex DNA. Why? Is this said anywhere in any Halo game, book or creative process? And how would this prove a nano-genetic weapon application? Well then, in that case, I can tell you that: - the Q Continuum are the future form of humans, and can wipe out any race in Halo with a thought. - Or that since the Federation also have nanites, Starfleet ships can also self repair in the heat of battle like the Borg. - Or all humans in the Federation are completely immune to genetic resequencing thus incapable of falling to a Flood attack. Haloguy, the Feds are skilled at genetic engineering so they can adapt their own bodies to be immune. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean Starfleeters can't do it. Again, and I reiterate, once more, if you assume technology/achievements outside of what is stated by canon reference material, this conversation is merely reduced to "my daddy is bigger than your daddy". I said that Trek sensors are very sensitive and Starfleet technology can overcome different types of cloaks (Klingon/Romulan/time shifts etc). Now you said that the NOVA bomb is a stealth weapon which makes it successful. Clearly, then, the stealth means that it is intended to fool the Covenant. Or the Flood. Either way, my argument was that there is little reason that Starfleet ships would stand still when their sensors detect a massive nuclear bomb chugging slowly toward them. I also saw no indication that the NOVA bombs are stealth in the first place. ----- Yes they can adapt to projectiles. However you are quite correct in that they are extremely slow as ground troops to adapt to projectile weapons. They clearly though have physical prowess as seen in STTNG: Best of Both Worlds when a Borg drone almost overpowers Worf (if not for Data), or when Locutus (formerly "frail, old" Picard) was pushing toe-to-toe (or hand to hand) against Data until Data accidentally detached his arm. You also see Borg drones in physical combat in a couple episodes of STVOY inclusive of Seven-of-Nine in "Shattered" where she cold-conked a Kazon with one punch. Or in "Tsunakatse" where she went up against The Rock in a no-holds fight match (she only lost because she was slow to violence, and hey...it was The Rock), or where she almost killed a Hirogen when Voyager beamed her off the stage. And this is without the full Borg armor. It was however fun to see Captain Janeway go Amazoness on a Borg drone and decaptitate it with a bat'leth. Despite the fact that Borg drones on first face-off do not fare well against projectile weapons, they have show the ability to do so, and therefore you cannot assume that it is completely impossible for the Borg to withstand a projectile or physical attack. Also, this is on the ground or if Borg ships are boarded. You assume that the Borg will not simply stand in orbit and scorch a Covenant planet, or assimilate ship after ship with the ease we have seen them accomplish same, save for Species 8472. You're going with this thing again "I think". In cases of ambiguity, one should evaluate known abilities and refrain from adding other variables (eg how much ammo an un-fired tommy gun would have had in the scene). The known variables are 1. projectile weapon and 2. adaptive shielding. I don't think I need to continue. Patrick Stewart eats just like regular humans Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ----- This is akin to you flinging a ping pong ball at a bird. If you're firing a projectile at 7440 mi/s at a ship at quarter impulse (a tad less than 46,500 mi/s, 6 times as fast as the MAC projectile), what do you think that ship would do? Stall its engines and wait for it? Forget about its light speed phaser array? This is why Trek ships prefer phasers/disruptors over torpedos at sublight speed, a lot of ships would simply dodge a projectile and/or blow it to bits with a directed energy weapon.
I forgot to address this. Halo canon has no indication of magic weapons. This quote is a blatantly desperate attempt to insinuate magics where there are none. Were you bamboozled by the word "arcane"? "Arcane" simply means mysterious and unknown. How do you get to magical from anything in that quote? Remember Arthur C. Clark's famous quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I daresay that humans in the Halo Universe would say that Trek's transphasic torpedos are "arcane" as well.
Perhaps, but the Forerunner-Human evolutionary link is hinted at in all the novels and the games. I mean, a place that protects against the Halo's effects right underneath the birthplace of mankind. Doesn't that seem to make it a bit obvious that they are the direct desencdents of the Forerunners. And if you look close at the holograhic panels in Halo 2. You can see a some kind of activation button shaped like it was designed to accept either hand. In Ghots of Onyx, a sentinal talks in LATIN. That is incredible evidence that the Forerunners are Humans. That or their latinoes. *thinks about a bunch of space mexicans* Heres a pic of the hand Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! As for their being nanites on the Halos, consider this. When your making something, there are prerequiste technologys that you must have before building it. Skyscrapers needed elevators, steel, new methods of building, and new machines created before the first one could be built. You have to have certain technologies to build something. For the Halos, that would be new ways of building, new power systems, new alloys, new machines to construct the thing, new structural support techs, new factorys to manufacture the parts, new life support techs, new AI systems, new computers and algorithms, just about new everything. There has to be a certain kind of technology base before you can build something. The Halo's definately have some kind of circuit systems and replicators/slash factorys. Those sentinals are built in 5 or so seconds by the Forerunners. If we or ST tried it, it would take them weeks, even months. They likely have some kind of nano-bot assembler. ST might get a scan of the Halos, but they can't produce them, simply because their technology base is not advanced enough.
I also notcie that in every ST vs match, someone pulls the old Borg or Q card. Its getting very tiresome having to argue with you guys because you consider the Borg and Q to come save your asses if you look like your losing.
I also noticed that you ignored the correct number when I corrected myself.You instead went with the lower number, which wasthe incorrect one. Standard tactic there. Take the lowest number you can find and stick to it, right? 74,400, miles per second I don't think even a Sovereign can dodge that.
Provide a quote from a sample of these novels, just the same way you provided the Spark quote. This simply means a similar biology. Klingons have 5 fingered hands. Vulcans do as well. Romulans, Talaxians, Cardassians, Bajorans, Q. Do I tell you that this is evidence of them being human offshoots or future-selves? And once more this does not give any canon evidence of the same scientific achievement sequence! ??????????????? 1. Latin is a European ancient language, with its roots in Rome and surroundings. Latinos are people of Latin American origin (Latino, derived from "latinoamericano"). Latino people speak Spanish! 2. Similarity of language lends no evidence to similarity of scientific research. 3. Star Trek TOS has met Greek Gods that speak perfect English. Does this mean that they're future state humans? This entire diatribe means nothing and shows heavy guesswork and rewriting of Halo canon by YOU. You do not work for Bungie, neither are you an authorized writer of the works. Halo construction only proved the ability to construct large, computer-controlled, space-station bombs. None of this proves applied nanotechnology, genetic engineering or the ability to combine them. Trek has the ability to defeat the Flood for Halo, as similar circumstances show in STVOY. Halo races are unable to achieve this (thus far). You have no argument. This is somewhat true. Trek ships would indeed scan said Halos, but you cannot say that Trek does not have the ability reproduce them. The Federation indeed has the ability to replicate them, especially as you said Halo construction has to be replicator based (which Trek has got in abundance). What is true is that the Feds do not have anything like a Halo, and with good reason. They do not see the forced extinction of races as an option to any threat. (Heh, Trek humans are morally superior to the vaunted 'Forerunners' your example of the ultimate race tsk!). ----- 1. What's wrong with that? You've declared war against the Trek universe! The Q Continuum is part of the Trek universe. Also, I was not first to bring in Borg comparisons. 2. YOU challenged the Q Continuum with the Forerunners (not to mention B5's First Ones & Star Wars Jedi when you said Forerunners are more advanced than any race in SciFi). Pathetic. 3. I am mostly arguing for Starfleet and the Federation, with Klingon and guardedly Romulan allies. I only speak of the Borg and Q when you and Fettman bring up crap points. 4. The Borg will not lift a servo to save the Federation. The Borg however would assimilate or destroy everything in the Halo universe. You have shown no technology that the Borg cannot overcome. The Flood is the only challenge to Borg assimilation, but they'd just fry the little things. ----- OH I do apologize, this was an unintentional misread. I just looked it up myself when you pointed it out. At any rate, half impulse is over 90K mi/s. Warp 1 is light speed. Phasers are light speed. Torpedos fired in Warp are capable of sustaining the Warp factor that they're fired within. Warp 9.9 is 9909 times the speed of light. At (lower) impulse speeds, it is true that it'd be more difficult for larger capital ships to dodge large projectiles. But hey, that's what they have Warp, and phasers for right? Not to mention smaller fighter ships (Defiants, Sabres, Mirandas, Steamrunners, Novas, Intrepids). The SMAC ammo is somewhat noteworthy, but nothing that Starfleet ships can't handle. Give me a break. ----- I also notice you missed your own contradictory statements where you say NOVA bombs have to be stealth, then you say NOVA bombs must be detectable. Which is it?
I said, if they WERE detectable. As for the Sentinal speaking latin, I have the book right here. : His own voice blasted through his speakers. Fhejelet 'Pnught Juber. (Later)Fhejelet non sequiter, now? I got part of that. Non sequiter, thats Latin right? (Later) Security protocols enabled. Ring offensive system activated. Shield in count-sown mode. Exchange proper counter-response, Reclaimer. And excerpt from Halopedia about Forerunners and Humans: When 343 Guilty Spark talks about activating the installation, he says "Last time you asked me if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed." 343 Guilty Spark during Halo 1 also says to the Master Chief "Please stop being human" if Master Chief shoots at him in the Library, possibly implying that the monitor knows what humans are- or that the Forerunner are ancient descendants of humanity or humans themselves. Another instance when 343 Guilty Spark makes a reference to humans being linked to forerunners is when he says to the Master Chief, "The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am grateful to see that some of them survived to reproduce." This might be implying that humans are descendants of forerunners. However, it could also imply that 343 Guilty Spark is referring to the Flood. The Halo installations seen in the games and novels also appear to have the same gravity and atmosphere as Earth; it would make sense that the Forerunner would attempt to make the Halos similar to their homeworld. The monitor asks "Why would you hesitate to do what you've already done?", after the Master Chief chooses not to activate Halo, possibly another hint to humanity's true roots. On many of the walls of the Forerunner structures. there are geometrical and mathematical designs and patterns. If you look closely at certain walls you will find lines that greatly resemble a human face. It is easiest to find this on The Silent Cartographer, although they are also found on almost every level in Halo 1. Late in the first Halo game, during a cutscene in the level "The Maw", [343 Guilty Spark] is shown pulling data out of the Pillar of Autumn's data core while saying, "You can't imagine how exciting this is, to have a record of all of our lost time! Oh I shall enjoy every moment of its categorization...", which may be another link between humans and Forerunners. The fact that only humans, or Reclaimers, as the monitor refers to them can activate the rings. This is shown near the end of Halo 2 when Tartarus forced Miranda Keyes into placing the Index into Halo's control systems, rather than do it himself. At the end of Halo 2, as the remaining rings are left in a state of standby after their firings are averted, Commander Miranda Keyes asks 343 Guilty Spark where one (i.e. the High Prophet of Truth) would go to remotely fire all the Halo rings. His response, full of surprise at the query, is "The Ark". Upon being asked the location of the Ark, the cutscene transitions to show Truth's ship arriving outside Earth's orbit. The novels also appear to offer hints about the link between humans and Forerunners. Several Spartans recognize Forerunner symbols but they can't quite place them, which may mean that the information is deep in the subconscious. In Halo: The Flood, the Master Chief just 'knows' how to activate the light bridge, for some strange reason; the same appears true when he activates the Silent Cartographer. In Halo: First Strike, the Spartans just "know" how to operate the Wraith tanks. If the Covenant did indeed salvage technology from the Forerunners, then that might explain it. In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx at one point one of the Spartan-IIIs is challenged by one of the sentinels in Latin. This could lead to more speculation that humans are in fact the forerunners or servants of them. Halo 3 may also offer more clues or explanations. In the game's E3 announcement trailer, the vast Forerunner object the Master Chief observes resembles an earlier sketch that says "Ark" and Dervish, the early name for the Arbiter. Bungie has not confirmed that the object Master Chief witnesses is the Ark, only stating that it is a Forerunner artifact. Possible other hints include Cortana's monologue in the second underwater elevator during the Halo 2 Level- "Regret". She states that Regret's fleet had been ten times smaller than the Fleet that glassed Reach, that they had come to find something, such as the Ark. An excerpt about Forerunner tech:The Halo rings themselves, as well as the Micro-Dyson sphere at the center of the artificial world Onyx, are, above all others, the most significant pieces of technology. The planet Onyx in particular demonstrates both their ability for engineering on a grand scale, and their near transcendent grasp of "Slipspace" technology.
Avoidance. You alluded that the Covenant couldn't detect Nova bombs, then you state that the Covenant should be able to since they're experienced in nuclear science. You have been cornered on this one (see your statements in red). I accept no further arguments on the NOVA, since no Halo reference I can find even hints that they are stealth. They are fully detectable therefore by Trek sensors as a nuclear weapon and very succeptible to transporter technology, or even simply Warping out of the way. First...WHAT? Dude the first sentence sounds like a mixture of Hindi and Rose Nylund. Second...WHAT? An alien being says "non sequiter" and you assume it means the same as our "non sequitur"? You also assume that it speaks fluent latin??? From one phrase? All this proves is that the Spark knows what humans are. That is all. Captain Picard knows Worf is a Klingon, or Q is an amorphous near omnipotent being. Does that make them evolutionarily related?? This is a language barrier problem. This clearly states that the Flood were to survive for long term study. Gravity measurements and planetary have almost nothing to do with higher-state evolution. I'm sure that Bajoran portrait artwork resembles human faces too. Your point? Hm...this one is unverifiable in my opinion. This data core is clearly not human manufactured, yet present within humanity's reach. Perhaps Spark sought to learn something from the data core of his own origins that had nothing to do with humans. No, this may only be such because the Forerunners were decimated before humanity's arrival. This might be the single piece of deitific ability that can be inferred because they'd have to know (predict) that humans would flourish as "an older race" in the future, and thus have access to Halos. No evidence of a genetic link there. Not sure what this is meant to prove. This may simply be a plot device, or perhaps telepathic technology...which also exists in Trek. You'd have a tough time selling the idea of genetic memory for this. I'm not even going to bother with this Latin thing you brought up. However...you cleverly inserted "servants of them" which I take to mean that humans might have been servants of the Forerunners. How in hell does that prove a genetic link? None of which proves any biological link between Forerunners and humans thus far. We shall have to wait and see. HOWEVER and please read this carefully...the point of you attempting to prove the Forerunner/human link is to assert that the Forerunners must necessarily have been experts at genetic engineering, since humans (who incidentally came after, and are developing it in the reality universe). As of now, there is still no evidence of this, further, this does not mean that Forerunners even had nanotechnology or a way to make a weapon out of nanobots and genetic research.
I am not guessing about non sequiter. That is the script in the book. Why don't you read it? And those were excerpts. I did not write them.
well halo cuase covenet have higer techonology and loads more numbers plus ifit was a three way war covenent woudl also dominate
No no no...I didn't say you guessed that you saw this phrase...I'm telling you that you indeed saw this one single phrase, and assume that the character could speak an entire language just by getting a single phrase in a human language correctly. - He could have picked it up from eavesdropping on Comms - He could have gleaned it from hacking into human computers - It might actually have a meaning in his language!
