Gustav Temp Banned For Foul Words?

Bells:

This sounds like a "golden age" myth to me. People got just as offended back in the glory days as they do now. It's just that nothing was done about it back then. You just had to put up with the flames, or leave.

The question to ask, I guess, is: do you think the quality of actual discussion was better back in the old days, due to freedom to insult with impunity?

Yes. And you think this was a preferable state of affairs to what we have now? Please explain why.


quadraphonics:

This year, I have banned you twice. Both times for insulting other members. In the same period you have also been banned by madanthonywayne and by hypewaders.

Oh dear. No no no, quadraphonics! You really are one of my favoritist posters. I do so enjoy your flights of ego.

You might want to investigate the distinction between "disinterested" and "uninterested".

I'm happy to answer questions if you have some.

And where has anybody tried to silence you?

 

The thread is about whether Gustav should have been banned for "foul words". Since you have been recently banned for using foul words directed at other members, I thought it useful to point out to readers what you did not point out yourself - that you have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion due to your penchant for occasional foul language.

Who did you think you were fooling when you came into this thread criticising moderators who ban for foul language?

 

The members we had back then had thicker skins and were not as prickly or sensitive. The general tone of debate has changed since when I first joined. Was it the "golden age"? No. It wasn't perfect but there wasn't this need to report for mere words or be banned for saying words like "goddamn" or "fucking" too many times in one post. Now there is.

I am not going to say Fraggle is wrong or right in his ban. Because I realise that we have gotten to the point where that's become a gray area now. People do get offended in this place by the use of such words and other words. Let me ask you a question. Say 10 years ago you received a complaint from a member complaining that another member said "goddamn" 4 times in one post. Would you have acted on that complaint because that member felt that the other was being too rude or offensive? But now we are in a position where we have to act on such things because members are offended by it or their feelings hurt.

I'll give you another example, with one of my wars with a fellow member on this forum, we have said some pretty awful things to each other. I don't think I have ever once complained about what he called me, but reported more the reason behind the over-all message, which at the time I felt was bigoted and racist. That is the difference and I think it comes from the fact that I was here back then. Like when one other member once told me that she hoped my reproductive organs rotted and fell out (in fairly graphic terms)... I didn't get offended or hurt. I mean it's bizarre. Nowdays, if I tell someone they're a 'poopy head', there'd be reports from that person and others who felt offended on that individual's behalf.

At the end of the day, we have to cater to the majority of the audience in this place. If people become offended or hurt, then we have to cater to that. I just find it strange that our older members (most of whom have left or been banned by the time the gradual hange reached its peak) were not so easily offended, so when they respond in the manner that used to be acceptable, people get offended and report and we end up with bannings for words like "fucking" and "goddamn". Them's be the times I guess..

It can't be the preferable state of affairs though, can it? If we were to go back to how this place was moderated way back then, we'd lost 3/4 of the membership because they would be mortified and offended constantly and their complaints about being called "stupid" for example, would fall on deaf ears and they'd be told to toughen up and don't feed the trolls. We cater to the current population and I would imagine, in 10 years time, if this place is still here, things would have changed again.

You cannot deny the simple fact that today we moderate if people's feelings are hurt or if someone is rude. Back then you did not. Is it better? If it is what the majority want I suppose, then to cater to the needs and desires of the majority, it would have to be better.

 

I still think there's no need to report too many uses of "fuck" in a post. Of course, that's my personal opinion. Some people may actually be offended by the mere presence of such a word in any context, and those will be the people who file a report. But I actually doubt whether many of those people would be reading and posting here. In my opinion, profanity becomes actionable when it is completely gratuitous (as in posts that contain only the word "fuck" repeated over and over, being also off-topic), or when it is used in the context of a personal attack (e.g. "You're a fucking idiot.") In the second case, the actionable factor is not the profanity so much as the insult delivered. The addition of the profanity is merely an unimaginative intensifier.

What I would have done in the past may well have been different to what I'd do now, so it's hard to say. What I would do now is that I'd look at the context of the post. I very much doubt that the repeated use of "goddamn" would be actionable in and of itself, but coupled with flaming, personal insult or some other kind of offence it may well be (e.g. "Those goddamn preaching Christians like you coming to my goddamn door trying to convert me give me the goddamn shits.")

It actually works the other way round, too. The members we attract are, at least in part, determined by how we treat such issues. Obviously, if we create an atmosphere of free-for-all insults, then the members who will stay here are those who have thick skins, who enjoy the rough and tumble, who get a kick out of taking other people down etc. If we do not condone insults, then we attract and keep a different demographic - those who want polite and respectful conversation and debate that is relatively free of flames.

Over time, sciforums has certainly moved in terms of the kinds of members who we wish to retain as members. A brief look at past prolific posters who have left or been banned shows you without doubt the kinds of people who are not longer welcome here. A few names from the distant past: Xev, Gendanken, Wanderer, spuriousmonkey, Nikelodeon, The Devil Inside. All of them loved putting others down. All of them loved the personal insult and the profanity. All of them became increasingly uncomfortable when we started to clamp down on such things. And they all, one way or another, moved on.

You're right. But I don't think the changes we see are entirely member-driven. That's part of the picture, but the way the forum is moderated is another very large part.

I guess the bottom line is: if you want to "blame" somebody for the change, you can't simply blame "over-sensitive" members. You also have to blame the moderators/admins who "cater" to them. Or, to look at it from the other side, you could start by blaming the mods/admins who decide what kinds of complaints will be taken seriously, and then go on to complain about members who demand that the limits of actionable complaints be gradually expanded to ridiculous extremes.

My main point in this post is that the policies we adopt here over time work to determine what the majority view will be at any given time. Those who are constantly in a minority position will drift away or be banned or lose interest or whatever. Or, of course, they may marshall their forces and work for changes in policy so that they eventually become the majority opinion and determine site policy.

 

Hardly. You're just overly fixated on moderators so you don't notice when other people engage in flame wars.

And who is the most prolific poster here? Would that be the most mediocre person?

 

I posted a lengthy and thoughtful post on the subject of the thread. You ignored it entirely. Hmm...

I'd have to look for it. AFAICR, we haven't had any discussion about you for quite a while. You're actually not the centre of the universe, believe it or not.

I can take a look for you if you think it would be helpful.

What, in particular, are you looking for? You have no access to the mod forum, so what you imagine is there may well not be. There have been a couple of threads there concerning matters involving you, but the same is true for many other members too.