"Gun Control"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by R1D2, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Why is everyone ignoring the horrifying statistic that, based on years of record-keeping, the average gun is five times as likely to kill an innocent victim than to be used (successfully) in self-defense?

    How can anyone--especially SciForums members whose average IQ and educational level is considerably higher than average--ignore this reality?

    Do we have to put up billboards saying, "Make your home, your neighborhood and your entire country a teeny bit less safe: buy a gun." Each billboard should include photos of the innocent people in that Zip code who were killed by guns over the last 24 months.
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Nobody's ignoring it - some of us are actually paying enough attention to it to have noticed you don't seem to realize what it means.

    In the first place, it's a miscount - a fair number of suicides and other non-innocent deaths are misclassified in the US, legitimated self defense often involves the non-innocent, the count only includes kills (which are a small percentage of gun mishaps and employments), and so forth.

    In the second: If guns were used well, in self defense, if they had even more of the effect they are supposed to have than they do, that kill ratio would be even higher - ten to one, twenty to one. Private guns used well kill almost nobody except by accident, except the innocent.

    And billboards with bs on them do harm, damage the credibility of the gun control efforts. Nobody will willingly give State power to people who claim it like that.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    you are ignoring it thats the point spider. your continuing to lie about and dismiss it to push a dissproven and dangerous idea, that guns make people safer. it been so throughly debunked that one can almost right off anyone making as a partisan hack. i'm sorry but on this topic you have proven yourself to be incrediblely intellectually dishonest.
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Debunking rampant bullshit:
    1. The Congressional Research Service put the number of civilian firearms ownership in the United States at 310 million back in 2009: 114 millionhandguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns.
    2. In the U.S. for 2010, there were 31,513 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 19,308; Homicide 11,015; Accident 600.
    3. Do the math!
  8. milkweed Valued Senior Member


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Well it would be a massive waste of space for one thing. My zip-code? Zero faces. Well maybe not a total waste; gun banning advocates would be surprised at how many empty billboards would exist.

    Children killed by accidental discharge of gun 12 months (dec 15 2012 - dec 14 2013):

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    2012 - 2013, United States Unintentional Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
    All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages

    Number of _ _ _ _ Population*** _ _ CrudeRate
    1,053 _ _ _ _ _ _ 630,002,524 _ _ _ _ 0.17

    2012 - 2013, United States Legal Intervention Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
    All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages

    Number of _ _ Population*** _ _ CrudeRate
    938 _ _ _ _ 630,002,524 _ _ _ _ 0.15


    Minnesota had zero Unintentional but I dont think thats correct. I know of one for sure accidental shooting that occurred in 2012; Neegnco Xiong, 2, shot on Dec. 5 with a loaded handgun he and his 4-year-old brother found in a bedroom of their south Minneapolis home. Which makes all the unintentional numbers suspect (under-reported).

    I am going to guess innocent people hit by stray bullets from things like gang activity falls under the murder statistics and is not included in accidental stats on CDC site. It is also likely police shootings are under Legal Intervention (regardless of what the bystander videos appear to show) but that is also suspect. For 2012 there were 8 police shootings resulting in fatalities in Minnesota but the CDC site lists 0 under legal intervention.

    There does not seem to be reliable numbers on accidental or Legal intervention gun death numbers making it impossible to conclude anything with confidence.
  9. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    I think #1 is misleading. Many households have more than one gun. However, surveys are also misleading. I know several people who would say "nope, no guns here" if asked. I know I surely would not tell a stranger, over the phone, if I had a gun in my house. I would disregard who they claimed to be working for.

    Just like I wouldnt tell them whether I had cash on me at all times, sometimes, seldom... lol...
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Probably. And gun nuts would be shocked at how many there were. There are about 66,000 gun deaths in the US every 24 months, most of them of innocent people; there are 41,000 zip codes in the US. Indeed, for every use of a gun to stop a criminal there are 34 homicides, 78 suicides and 2 accidental deaths. That would be a lot of billboards.

    (I take that back. The gun nuts would see the signs and say "liberal lies by Obama who wants to grab our guns!" ignore them and go their merry way.)

    Minnesota has averaged 4.6 accidental deaths a year from guns since 2000. On average, guns kill one person a day in Minnesota.

    That's the bad news. The good news is that Minnesota is _relatively_ safe; 30 other states have higher rates of gun deaths than Minnesota does.
    The NRA actually prohibits the CDC from collecting accurate data on gun deaths. The above data came from the Minnesota Department of Health which the NRA has not been able to muzzle. Some states keep fairly good records; some don't.
    Exactly - the NRA has accomplished their goal of misinforming Americans about the risks that guns pose. Which makes sense; after all, the NRA often gets $1 for every gun sold in the US, so anything that slows gun sales is going to hurt their bottom line and force them to buy Fords instead of BMW's. And we can't have that.
  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Suicide is not an accidental death nor does it fall under innocent. I understand why gun control advocates want it included in gun death statistics alongside murder but I disagree in that application.

    Comparing use of a gun to stop a criminal vs criminal homicide is an apples/oranges comparison. How many of those 34 homicides were commented against someone who was carrying a gun? How many of those using a gun to commit homicide were already breaking the law just being in possession of the gun ?
    Nice how you take my 'gun banning advocates' (of which Fraggle unabashedly qualifies for) and respond with 'gun nuts'.
    But your partly right. All those empty billboards would reinforce that position. In my zip-code, I honestly cannot think of one murder via gun. Several suicides, cant think of one accidental death, and I've lived in this zip-code for 45 years.

    Just did a quick search on the nearest city with a pop > 10K (and one zip code) and no murders come up. I think there probably has been, but it hasnt been recently.

    Now back to the Billboard by zipcode. There are 1,031 zip codes in MN. 380 in Hennepin county (minneapolis pop 1.3 million).

    In 2012 there were 120 homicides reported for the state. Of that number, 19 offenses were ruled negligent leaving a murder and non-negligent homicide total of 101 which is reflected in Table 10.

    How many were by gun? 38
    How many by knife/cutting instrument? 24
    Hands/feet/fists? 12
    asphyxiation: 2 - just wanted to clarify it wasnt same as above.

    So without finishing the cause of deaths in MN 2012 we have a tie. 38 by guns, 38 by other. Its still murder.

    Point being the billboard idea by zip-code will not represent what the OP intended.

    EDIT addition: An average over 13 years is not the same as Billboards for the last 24 months. And again I refer you to the by zip code. 1000+ zipcodes, 300+ in one county. Thats a LOT of empty billboards.

    Here we go again. Lumping suicide in with murder (referring to article).

    Every day, approximately one Minnesotan dies and another is injured from a firearm. Firearms
    are the second leading cause of traumatic brain injury death in Minnesota. Nearly three-fourths
    of firearm-related deaths are suicides
    , however, rather than assaults or unintentional injuries on
    another person.


    NOTE that Not all suicides are by gun, though a majority are. Approx 47% of women choose poison/od for suicide method.

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/mnjis/Documents/2012 Crime Book.pdf

    Congress sets CDC budget. NRA lobby efforts on behalf of their members is no different than AARP lobbying for their members or ASPCA lobbying for their members, etc. We get to do that in America.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    When an organization relies on the general public being misinformed, you know it does not have the public interest in mind.
  13. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    See, and I think the misinformation is lumping suicide in with murder.

    Just as I find the efforts to restrict doctors prescribing pain meds for people because Some people abuse drugs just as bad.
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    I agree. Suicide and murder are different. They are, however, both gun deaths. Which is why most people are far more likely to be harmed by their gun than helped by it.

    It is indeed unfortunate that the NRA has succeeded in making such data impossible to gather at a federal level.
  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Slight drift here (but relevant in its own way).

    Are you against physician assisted suicide/right to die?
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Under very limited circumstances I support it.
  17. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Who gets to set those parameters; you for yourself only or?
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Doctors specializing in assisted suicide. Most suicide attempts are due to mental illness; a doctor can make the determination that the person is of sound mind and is requesting it based on a logical evaluation of his remaining quality of life (i.e. he is in the process of dying of an incurable, painful, debilitating disease.)
  19. Oystein Registered Senior Member

    I find that flat-out disgusting. I am not the first person to say that FOI is one of the strongest columns that support a democracy. And this gun info is not classified -- it's not a state secret -- it's revelations are not going to harm anyone. I don't understand how the NRA can deny people this freedom of information.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  20. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    ~~~When the research was banned, Dr. Arther Kellermann had been working on CDC-funded research on whether home gun possession had potentially protective or hazardous effects on health. Nonprofit organizations helped fund the remainder of the project, but as the years went on, fewer and fewer nonprofits stepped up. ~~~

    There is no ban on studies. There is a ban on tax dollar dedicated funding for these studies. And thinking about it, shouldnt this be a dept of Justice/FBI/Law enforcement realm rather than CDC?
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

    From Wikipedia:
    Its main goal is to protect public health and safety through the control and prevention of disease, injury, and disability. The CDC focuses national attention on developing and applying disease control and prevention. It especially focuses its attention on infectious disease, food borne pathogens, environmental health, occupational safety and health, health promotion, injury prevention and educational activities designed to improve the health of United States citizens.
    Sounds like understanding gun violence would go a long way towards reducing the incidence of injury for United States citizens.
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    the CDC lists:
    All injury deaths Number of deaths: 192,945/year(from CDC fast facts)
    of which 600 were gun accidents (see post 64 above)
    just maybe
    understanding gun violence would go a very short way towards reducing the incidence of injury for United States citizens.
    Meanwhile: 4,585 workers were killed on the job in 2013 [BLS 2013 workplace fatality data*]
  23. milkweed Valued Senior Member


    if its a mental health issue, it falls under
    Nat Institute of Health with its
    Mental Health and Mental Disorders dept (co-lead)
    in partnership with the existing
    Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
    Mental Health and Mental Disorders (co-lead)

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