Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

Discussion in 'Politics' started by James R, Oct 1, 2007.

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See first post for gun control measures. Are you for or against them?

  1. I am American and I would support the measures below, in general.

    14.5%
  2. I am American and I am against one or more of the measures below.

    44.9%
  3. I am NOT American and I would support the measures below, in general.

    30.4%
  4. I am NOT American and I am against one or more of the measures below.

    7.2%
  5. I have no opinion on this, or do not wish to express my opinion.

    2.9%
  1. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,137
    Okay.
    In a country where there are more armed law-abiding citizens than armed criminals there are very few surviving armed criminals.

    What's not better about that?
     
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    I'm not convinced that a gun buy-back is going to remove a significant amount of guns from the hands of criminals. What tends to happen with buy backs is that people sell a lot of old, disused guns and hold on to their good ones. The amount of money you'd have to pay to put a serious dent in the market would be astronomical, and even then, what would stop a criminal from selling his old guns and using the money to buy a fresh one on the black market?

    No, not necessarily. It depends on which guns you remove, how you do it, and what else you do along with it. Simply paying people top dollar for any gun they walk in with, no questions asked, is a sure-fire plan to put huge amounts of cash in the hands of criminals while creating a massive black market for guns smuggled into the United States.

    The quickest way for you to understand would be to come spend some time here and see for yourself.

    It's better for everyone but criminals to be able to own guns than for nobody to be able to own guns. It's also better to let the different states, counties, cities and facilities set their own rules about how they want to handle it, rather than impose a draconian federal policy. We have this crazy idea that people with different ideas about things like this can coexist in a peaceful federal system, with everyone free to live some place where the gun regulations accord with their views, and they have a say in determining them. Hopefully, you can imagine how a top-down campaign by the federal government to overturn the second amendment and purge America of guns would interfere with that. It can be worth the damage to our polity for issues like, say, slavery, but I don't think guns qualify.
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Well, good heavens, ....the bleeding-heart liberals WANT those criminals to survive, for heaven's sake! That's what bleeding-heart liberals are all about ...so naturally they'll want to take our guns to ensure that criminals survive and thrive.

    Baron Max
     
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  7. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Does America have very few surviving armed criminals?
     
  8. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Yes some people will definitely do this. I don't think we are going to find a perfect solution.

    I am getting the impression that it wouldn't work in America at the moment because of your (the US) attitude towards gun rights. Yes I am generalizing here but let me continue. Your people seem to feel more secure with a gun regardless of the ramifications of many people having access to one. It also seems to be a symbol of your freedom - one of the things that makes your country great. I suspect that even if your country were better off without all these guns your people would fight it all the way. Things may change in time.

    If a buy back scheme was able to remove most of guns from the community do you think it would be a good idea?

    If a criminal has stockpiled guns then yes that could happen as well. If your criminals are able to stockpile all these guns as you describe then that is a reason to try and get as many back. Remember that the intention here is that the price of guns on the black market will go straight up. In the situation you describe, a criminal has sold several guns and replaced them with one. Even if everyone did that it would at least be a small step forward.

    I think we have to also not look at things as black and white with the law abiding people Vs the criminals. (I have done it as well.) There are probably a lot of gun related deaths involving a law abiding person who lost control and unfortunately had a gun nearby in reach.

    Fear of increasing the value on the black market is not enough reason to avoid making something dangerous illegal.

    I have actually been to the US but didn’t get the chance to see much. I worked in Minnesota for six months. I like the country and have always supported Australia’s ties to the US.

    Australia is very much like the US - except we are less religious and have better beaches.

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    Yes I understand that removing guns from the community requires changing the laws and removing rights that you currently have. Having seen it happen there though, I think the benefits are worth it. It’s just my opinion quadraphonics and I may certainly be wrong.

    In one hundred years from now firearms will have advanced to be even more deadly. Think about how far guns have come in one century. Do you think these laws should still be defended then? Do you speculate that there will be a point where the law will change?
     
  9. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    I don't think that removing all (or most) of the guns from the community is a good idea in and of itself. The supposition that it would work implies that criminals aren't going to be able to replenish their supply of guns from some other source, which in turn implies that the black market is already held in check, which implies that efforts would be better spent on getting the remaining guns out of the hands of criminals.

    And so the incentive for people to smuggle guns in to sell on the black market will go straight up. And so the supply of guns available on the black market will go straight up. And so we'll end up disarming law-abiding citizens while ensuring that criminals have arms galore. Without control of the black market, other efforts to curb guns are counterproductive. With control of the black market, they're unnecessary. Thus, the emphasis should be control of the black market, not disarming the citizenry.

    A major difference between Australia and the United States in this regard is that you guys are on an island. It's much, much, much easier for you to exert control over guns being smuggled in. In that case, it can make sense to put stronger controls on gun ownership among law-abiding citizens, as that pool of guns is a significant contributor to the black market. The United States, on the other hand, has huge, unpatrolled borders that already host some of the world's largest smuggling operations. Curbing regular gun ownership is just going to ensure that even more guns come from the black market, where we have little chance of regulating them.

    Not if they sell two old, rusty guns and buy one new assault rifle.

    Indeed, most of the killing-spree type of murders are committed by otherwise law-abiding citizens with legally-obtained guns. The problem is that no gun control measures other than outright banning of all guns will prevent this.

    It's not the feat of the black market value as such, but what said market will do in response to said increase in value. Which is to say, pump tons of guns into the hands of criminals.

    Hmm... methinks you need to visit California... actually, the beaches are better on the Atlantic, but as far as the non-religious thing goes...

    The laws change all the time, and they certainly change to keep up to date with changes in the lethality of the guns in question. There are plenty of guns that it's illegal to sell or possess in the United States. But, no, I don't think the laws will ever change to the point of attempting to disarm society as a whole.
     
  10. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,137
    Far fewer than there are surviving armed citizens.
     
  11. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    10,581
    Spot on.
     

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