Gun control - US vs. rest of the world

Discussion in 'Politics' started by James R, Oct 1, 2007.

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See first post for gun control measures. Are you for or against them?

  1. I am American and I would support the measures below, in general.

    14.5%
  2. I am American and I am against one or more of the measures below.

    44.9%
  3. I am NOT American and I would support the measures below, in general.

    30.4%
  4. I am NOT American and I am against one or more of the measures below.

    7.2%
  5. I have no opinion on this, or do not wish to express my opinion.

    2.9%
  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    37,189
    A quick poll of sciforums members.

    Please answer whether you are for or against the following specific measures:

    • Ban all automatic weapons from private ownership.
    • Require the registration of ownership of all guns and ammunition.
    • Require a licence to own a gun privately.
    • Require cause to be shown to obtain a gun licence (e.g. farmers, members of shooting clubs).

    That will do for the purposes of this poll.

    If you disagree with any of the above measures, vote disagree. If you agree in principle (even if you think certain details might need tweaking) vote agree.
     
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  3. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    I'm an American gun owner and I voted choice #1. All those conditions sound very reasonable to me.
     
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  5. superstring01 Moderator

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    I, too, voted for the first measure.

    ~String
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I voted against having to show cause to obtain a gun license.

    Not only is it against the second amendment, and I do not want the Constitution modified over something like that, but I do not think government officials should have any say over what I find a worthy "cause" to justify purchase and ownership of a firearm I am otherwise entitled to enjoy.

    That is exactly the kind of thing that a government should never be doing. It is far beyond its capabilities, and opens the door to all kinds of mischief. If I want to paint the thing green and use it to plant watermelons, that's my business.
     
  8. superstring01 Moderator

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    12,110
    Odd. As a liberal I woulda' pegged you for a total gun control guy. How does the notion of gun control factor into your worldview? Just curious.

    ~String
     
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    But I want to keep my bazooka!

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  10. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    The most important measure isn't there.

    - If you own a gun you have to keep it locked away when not in use. The ammunition needs to be locked away separately. This is under scrutiny of regular unannounced controls. (this in combination with a license)

    If so, you can have a fully automatic if you so desire. I wouldn't care about that. You might need to rebel against your own government!

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  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    But that ain't the way that the "boyz in the hood" would do it.
     
  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    24,066
    Then the boyz go to prison.

    Needless to say I would also be talking about a society that has some kind of social safety net and some kind of civilized police force.

    I wouldn't think for a second that the average American would be willing to lock up his gun.

    The Swiss have no problem with it though. And they have a militia force.

    So technically there is no problem with the idea.
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Try going into "the hood" and taking anything away from them "boyz". You'll find it difficult to even find a automatic in their homes.You're ideas are good but implementing them is very difficult.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,189
    Of course.

    I only listed a few obvious measures as they came to mind. My list isn't meant to be definitive.

    I'm still expecting that some gun nuts will object to the ones I've listed. And my theory is there'll be more objections from Americans than from non-Americans.
     
  15. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    As a Libertarian, I'd have expected you to oppose at least some of Jame's proposals. Especially the requirement to show cause. It should be the opposite. The government should be required to show cause to prevent you from purchasing a gun.

    By the way, I don't own a gun. But I don't want to live in a country in which the government feels it's necesary to disarm its citizens. The Nazis banned guns before rounding up citizens and sending them to death camps.

    An armed population is the final check on a tyranical government.
     
  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Messages:
    24,066
    But that is only because the US let the situation grow out of control. Obviously once control is lost you cannot easily regain it.

    I think the US is a good case that signifies the importance of some kind of level of gun control.

    Let me now present you with the scientific principle behind gun control. The all important principle of the arms-race.

    Criminals do not need guns if there are no guns in a society. Gun use increases among criminals when guns become more available.

    The power principle of arms-race dictates this. A criminal is taking a risk by being a criminal. He has much more to lose than the average citizen during an encounter.

    For instance; in a burglary the criminal is trespassing. He is entering the domain of another person. This person will feel threatened. The criminal is only doing his 'job' (that's how they see it; we don't and hence we feel violated and threatened). If there is a high chance that the owner of the house has a gun the principle of arms race dictate that the criminal must have a gun too, and preferably a bigger gun. He has much more to lose than the house owner. The house owner will lose his stuff. The criminal will lose his life.

    This is comparable to the rabbit/fox arms race. The rabbit is running for his life, while the fox is merely running for his dinner. Hence the rabbit must be faster. He has more to lose.

    The criminal is that rabbit, the citizen the fox.

    In the last decades there has been an arms race going on in the US. More guns. Bullets that have gone from standard, to heavily modified, to cop killers etc.

    The principle of arms race is a costly one. Both parties invest heavily in the arms, while at the same time both have reduced resources to invest in other areas, and in case of gun control, both parties suffer from the mental consequences of the arms race.

    In evolution there is no way to stop an arms race besides extinction. The rabbit and the fox spend a considerable amount of their resources on the arms race. Resources that cannot go to reproduction.

    In the human society the arms race can be stopped.

    The soviet union crashed mainly because of the arms race. The US economy is not doing so well, because of the new arms race, although in this case it is an imaginary one; the arms race between the USA and the world of terrorism.

    Most nations in Europe gave up competing in the arms race after WW2. They profited a lot from that because resources that would have been spend on the arms race went back into society. They stopped the arms race (although there is a trend to resume it in some nations).

    And to put an end to the arms race of guns in peace time society would require a lot of effort. But in the end it will be worth it, because inaction leads inevitably to progression of the arms race.

    Unfortunately, nobody cares about scientific principles, because they think opinion is the way to decide on matters of importance.
     
  17. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

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    James R, I could not support your last condition, require "cause" to obtain a license to own a gun. That could easily be manipulated to exclude people based on anything from race to financial status. We have to show "cause" already to obtain a concealed carry permit, which is fine. Again, some people buy guns for any possible future need for protecting their families or neighbors.
    It is no different than an insurance policy. My home has never burned down, but I would not feel comfortable without financial protection. You say one can call the police if they need protection. You can also call the fire department if your home catches on fire, therefore you don't need fire insurance, do you?

    I have mentioned before that I personally would support a through licensing procedure with full background checks and at least testing to make sure the person applying for the license knew safety rules of both handling a firearm and storing it properly. The license should be similar to a driver's license, with both a photo of the individual on it and a license number. It should be a criminal offence for anyone to sell to an individual without a license. Just like a driver's license, the gun license should be confiscated if the individual does anything in the future to disqualify his right to own a gun.

    None of this will make any guns disappear that are already in circulation. It will not deter a criminal from obtaining a gun, it will just make the unregistered guns more valuable. You do know that some people drive without licenses even though it is illegal, don't you James?
     
  18. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    But most drive with a license.
     
  19. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

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    James R,
    So anyone who disagrees with your naive opinions is a nut? Stop insulting people and argue the logic of your proposals if you can.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Hmm, I think Burma has instituted all of those laws and rules, haven't they? And look what's happening in Burma now.

    Baron Max
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    So if we enact the gun control laws, all of the criminals will turn in their guns and quit using them? ...just like that? ...even though the criminals don't obey any other laws, they'll instantly obey the gun control laws?

    How nice!

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    Baron Max
     
  22. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    yes and no.

    depends on what kind of gun control.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So there's some form of gun control that criminals will obey???

    You truly are a liberal dreamer, ain't you, Spurious? ...LOL!

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    Baron Max
     

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