Guantanamo Prison .

Which prison camps, SAM? Where are they? And please provide factual evidence instead of radical Muslim extremist propaganda!

As to India ...it's a human rights nightmare, yet you seem completely at ease with that. Why?

Baron Max

 

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I already did. Read the thread. Names, places and who released the information. At least 10 names there.

We can start a separate thread on India

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No, just going with the repoorts of people who have actually been there as part of surprise inspections.

I have. Each complaint against Gitmo that has painted it as anyworse than a county jail has been made by people who were never even there or have been proven wrong. Whereas the surpise inspections have never one been proven the place to be any danger to the people being held there.

Funny, how you have all these shocking factoids, but no number, hard evidence or anything but anecdoctal evidence by people KNOWN for lying to support your calim. At least the US has surprise videotaped inspections of it's side.

Yes some were used, but if you will note, it is not the ones we got introuble in Abu Ghraib for. The interrogators at gitmo gave a specific set of advises that had nothing to do with troture, nmeanwhile some idiots at Abu Ghraib did something that wer not condoned and were actually repudatedby the US military. Abu Ghraib was under investigation for six months before it was leaked. All the news coverage was from direct and and deliberate leaks by our government.

Actually, we as a nation never started it was individuals who did the abuse. Yes there were government employ but they were abusing their power.

Actually the investigations have gone on for some time if you had been paying attention.

Hey, just becuase bad shit is happening, we are not neeccesarily the ones to blame. There are many groups in the world that would love to hurt the Arabs and would gladly smear america while doing it. Unless you got evidence, and i mean real evidence you gotta go with disbelieving the people making the claims. I mean you wouldn't believe someone that claimed your son mollested them when your son says he didn't
and the accuser has no evidence he has even been mlested.

BS, BS and more BS. Of course you ignore the news becuase their the puppets of the military or something. try peddaling your shit elsewhere.

 

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Not believable, sorry. Not a shred of evidence. No one has even claimed that, except you, and you are normally full of shit in this matter - you also claimed that the tortures at Abu Ghraib were "fraternity pranks", for example.

The torture program at Abu Ghraib continued for many months, involved dozens of people and known commanders, supervisors, doctors, policy decisions by regular military, etc. There is no record of any of them - under cover or not, named or alluded to or merely counted - being charged with anything. People like Caroline Wood were promoted. Geoffrey Miller pleaded the fifth, was never charged. Even in reports like this one: http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2008/Detainees.121108.pdf there is no indication of any legal action taken against anyone not actually involved in the leaked photos from Abu Ghraib or a dead body they themselves killed.

Goofy. Apparently you never read the eyewitness FBI accounts, or all that other stuff I listed for you. Nor have you linked to a single report that has been proved wrong.

Read the Senate Armed Services Report I linked to above. Or Hersh's stuff. Or Klein's. Or hell, any investigative reporting on the matter. The tortures in the various US prisons set up like this were by policy, coordinated between different prisons, with trained personnel according to new techniques derived from the SERE program and Israeli experience, using facilities and gear designed and built in to the fucking cement walls.

No subpoenas? no investigations.

When we do bad shit, we are to blame.

Try posting counter evidence. Find a record of someone from Abu Ghraib not directly connected with the leaked photos who was "brought to justice" - for a torture program that went on for months, was modified according to advice from Geoffrey Miller (unpunished) at Gitmo, and resulted in an undetermined number of corpses one of which was even photographed.

 

No, your the one full of shit, the only information that you have is what you are fed by the news.

How many years of government service do you have to base your opinion on?

So yes, you are full of shit, all you have is what the News gives as the story, you have no personnel knowledge of the facts, you have no access to the facts of the case, as developed by investigation, by competent authorities, as to the fact of the cases.

You have no clearances to have access to the internal working of the Judaical system for handling national security matters, and it exist, just as the Judge Advocate System and the UCMJ exist in the Military.

A 20 years career in the military gives me access to information that you don't have.

I know about a lot of things, and how they are handled, as far as my clearances gave me access to the systems, and my clearances went fairly high into the hierarchy of the system.

 

Thats like saying the Nazis were more truthful about their torture than their victims and investigators.

Do you really believe that?

 

No, its saying that the news report only what it knows, and makes up the rest.

It says that with 29 years of service that I have a far better knowledge of the fact that things like that are handled in systems that because of National Security matters are not open to the public scrutiny.

Screw up like those are not tolerated, and the punishment is sever if convection is supported by evidence.

Like iceaura, you only have what you get in the News, and that is as far from the whole story that you can get as to the actual evidence of the case.

In cases like this, National Security information is at risk of exposure, so the cases are handled by special courts system that is part of the Security Apparatus of the U.S.

So again as I have said before, unlike you, if the evidence leads to a conviction, as was the case of the military end of the Abu Ghrieb scandal, I have no problem condemning those who were convicted.

I do not defend their actions, and will not convict them on the incomplete evidence presented by the News.

The Constitution says and means innocent until proven guilty by a Jury of Your Peers.

Be it in Civilian Court, Military Courts Martial, or the National Security Justice System.

And I do know that in the Military You are judged by Your Peers, and they are a harsh jury to those who break Faith with that Oath to the Constitution, UCMJ, and Code of Conduct.

And that is what I took a Oath to Uphold, the Constitution.

I, Buffalo Roam, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God.)

I took that Oath in 1969, and no one has relieved me of that Oath yet.

 

You provided nothing but affidavits taken by the FBI. No FBI agent eye witnesses. No proof beyond the owrds of peole trained to lie to interrogators. And what I did read was no worse than county jail.

 

They were eyewitness accounts by FBI agents.

Plenty of evidence both physical and testimony, from all kinds of people. Almost none of them "trained to lie to interrogators".

Quite a bit more reliable than ass-covering official "surprise inspections" - do you actually believe that kind of PR, btw? Or are you just shining me on ? Talk about people "trained to lie" - - -

What was published in photos on the cover of Time magazine was worse than a county jail.

What is documented in many different reports and accounts, what is indicated by circumstance and by mutually supported allegations, is much worse than that.

Still haven't come up with an example of all those reports that "have been proved wrong", we note.

 

What cover photo?

iceaura
"what is indicated by circumstance and by mutually supported allegations, is much worse than that"

What about evidence from Investigation, and Inspection, what weight does circumstance, allegation carry with out evidence?

Allegation and Circumstance, isn't admissible in a court of law, only evidence is admissible, supported by investigation, and forensics.

Kind of hard to prove a negative about something that is pattendly false in the first place, now:

Please provide the factual evidence from the inspections that shows your accusations to be true at GITMO, we know from evidence, confirmed by investigation and forensics that Abu Ghrieb happened, and those responsible were brought to justice and paid for their crimes.

Now you provide something more then Allegation and Circumstance, like evidence supported by Forensics, Investigation, and Inspection that your allegation have any fact in law.

 

So, anyone know if the concentration camp victims are being shifted to other unknown locations or what?

But none of this was followed for the incarceration. In fact, habeas corpus was suspended. There is no rule of law.

 

Giant barrages are being constructed and will be towed out into the hurricane belt in the Atlantic Ocean.

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American law is for American citizens or legal immigrants. American law does not cover everyone on Earth, ya' know.

Baron Max

 

It covers every American managing an American prison. Habeas corpus, in particular, covers everyone in American custody captured or imprisoned on American soil (Gitmo is American soil), or it covers no one.

The courts said "everyone", so we've dodged a bullet there - so far.

But we still have to enforce it. And we have to punish deliberate violations of it, severely.

 

Really, GITMO is American soil, well then under your definition any land we have as bases around the world is American Land?

You get to enforce nothing, Congress is the ones to enforce anything, and they have not supported the Courts Decission, with law or funding or with drawl of funding.

That is called the seperation of powers.

In fact the Congress re-authorised the system, as instructed by the Supreme Court, of Tribunials, constituting them by law with jurisdiction.

So the points of law were met.

 

Don't you really admire the way someone who is so sure they're in command of something, reassures everyone that they can do little about it?

 

Don't you really admire the way liberals, who are so sure they're in command of something, reassures everyone that they can do something about it?

 

Actually, I admire more, those who can ignore people who are so sure they're in command (of something or other) they just have to tell everyone about how they can't do anything about it.

Of course they can - just ignore the idiots.

 

Now exactly who are the idiots?

 

I believe in the justice system whereas an accused must face a judge or a judge and a jury for trial . A burden of proof is always on the prosecutor to show evidence .

 

Oh, shit ...another idealist! Mike, do you know how many trials, the type that you've mentioned above, have taken place in human history that were rigged and the innocent man when to prison or was executed?

Geez, idealism is such a freakin' bore! We should all love each other and give each other big sloppy, wet kisses on the lips, then all would be wonder-fuckin'-ful on Earth. Oh, gag me, puke, ....

Baron Max