group sex, is it rape?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, May 14, 2009.

?

is this rape

  1. Yes

    7.3%
  2. No

    75.6%
  3. Other

    14.6%
  4. Want to vote

    2.4%
  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    but no one drugged her, she wasn't drunk, they didn't hold her down and take her clothes off...why wouldn't they think she was ok with it?? :shrug:
    She did something she regrets and if having a hard time with it. The guys acted like pigs, but its not illegal to be an ass.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,682
    You can't answer the question?

    I'll ask it again.

    Does consenting to sex with 1 or 2 men mean you have consented to sex with 6 men or more?

    Let me give you another indication of just how bad it was and the simple fact that they (the men in that room) knew it was bad or what they had done to her was wrong.

    Now, what does that sound like to you? Doesn't sound like it was much fun for her, does it? "She's had enough"..

    If it was all so 'alright', why did he apologise to her for all those other men coming into the room? I guess he knows the training well, eh? It's how you treat them afterwards that counts.

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    Again Asguard, what everyone in Australia, with the exception of you and a few choice individuals, seems to understand is that the NRL is reknown for actions which result in the degradation of women. That is what has caused the massive uproar with this case. It was her humiliation and their coldness to her as a human being. How hard can it be to sink in? They never spoke to her during the whole ordeal. They only spoke about her. S&M? She didn't consent to S&M, did she? She didn't consent to being treated like a skank or a "slurry" that they've picked up. I don't particularly care what you and your partner get up to sexually. That is not the object of this discussion and you are both equal in the relationship and both equal in your desires for whatever it is that you do. Nothing at all like what happened to Clare.

    Just because there was not enough evidence to charge them, it does not make them innocent. And it does not make what they did to her right either. I guess you are the type of person who doesn't care if public personalities and sportsmen in particular humiliate and treat women like shit all the time (yes, this kind of thing goes on all the time). It would seem that Johns still doesn't seem to grasp that it is wrong. He's apparently felt guilt, but not about what was done to her as his apologies have shown quite clearly. He is only sorry because it has affected himself and his family in a negative way. He is sorry because he cheated on his wife. He is not sorry about what he did to Clare one bit.

    Can you understand how it would have been difficult for her to say no? Can you even grasp how the 'Code's' view about women and how this kind of scandal keeps repeating itself says something about the men in it? Maxine McKew then makes a very interesting observation. John's wife has a better idea of just why and how this is wrong:

    Why wouldn't she want it to be her daughter? What about him? After all, if it wasn't illegal, he should be alright with offering his 19 year old daughter to his favourite football team for a bit of team bonding, eh?

    Now can you see why this is so wrong? Why what they did to her was just so wrong? She didn't consent or remove consent. She consented to sex with two men. Just because she didn't say "no" does not mean she consented. She was not in a position to say "no" or to consent. The choice was taken from her when those other men started swarming into the room. As she admitted herself, she was in shock and she felt they exerted a power over her. When those men swarmed into that room, her ability to consent went out the window they were climbing through. She was no longer on an equal footing and the pressure on her to carry on and do what they wanted would have been immense. That is why the current laws of consent are being looked at as being wholly inadequate. Because they do not offer protection to women like Clare.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2009
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,615
    Most people haven't even had group sex, let alone coerced group sex.

    The start was 2 men. Then the others turned up. All of them burly rugby players. Do you think a naive 19 year old could stand up to a rugby team?

    In other words, you're considering the situation of a 19 year old man who agrees to go back to a room with 2 women, then the entire team turns up and uses him as a sex object, even though he didn't agree to that.

    Now since you have no problems with the actual incident under discussion, I'm sure you have even fewer problems with the sex-reversed one. That's because you imagine that all men must automatically want group sex with a bunch of hot chicks. And you can't imagine that a women, let alone a man, might not want group sex.

    (Cue a bunch of smart-alek young men to now chime in saying how much they'd love to be raped by a bunch of women. *yawn*)

    You can't generalise like this. You must take each victim as you find them.
     
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  7. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,913
    Did she say NO to those other men?

    If she said NO it was rape. If she didn't say 'no', 'stop', or otherwise resist, it wasn't rape.
     
  8. wise acre Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    726
    It could however have been shitty behavior on the part of the men, anyway, even without an open NO.

    I mean even in relationships with people, if you notice something is off, a human being stops. Sometimes people freeze or think they should do something they are scared to do or are ashamed or whatever.

    There's a good chance these guys could see something was off. Does that make it a prosecutable rape? probably not. Does that make them assholes? Very good chance.

    I mean if you are with a stranger and your friends climb in the window to join in in the sex, I mean, that's a time to really check in with your target, excuse me, sexual partner, about whom they were talking like she wasn't there, to see if she really wants this experience.

    If you go past body language, tension, stressed facial expressions....

    I think it's OK if later you lose your job, especially a job like that.

    They can go get jobs. Strongly healthy guys like that.

    Or they can live off what they've earned already.

    I mean, you can get fired for calling the boss a jerk or for hitting on a customer.

    That's life.
     
  9. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Agreed, however, as wise acre points out...

    I essentially agree with what wise acre is saying here. Coercion of an adult is frequently not a crime, but I can certainly see it as being abhorent and cause for the law to be modified to cover such cases.
     
  10. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    The word "no" is not magic. The question is did she consent? And we have one side saying yes and the other saying no. The police decided to take the yes side and there isn't any indication of further legal depute.

    What is happening now is she is talking about what happened, from her stand point, and it is considered unsavory enough that he has lost his job(s).

    There is nothing illegal about talking about how you were gang banged in an illicit tryst with some jock and his team, and there is nothing illegal about a public figure who has a deplorable sex scandal come out losing his job and having trouble with his wife.

    Whether or not it was "rape" its pretty obvious she wasn't very happy about it and now he's getting some pay back. C'est la vie.
     
  11. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    For rape what matters, whether she consented or whether the guy thinks she consented?

    Is not saying no the same as giving consent? Is saying no enough to to indicate that consent is withheld or does she have to scream and punch and scratch them as well?
    Does guy number 10 in what began as a consensual gang bang have any responsibility to verify that consent has continued?

    If the Rugby player had any love in their hearts they would have checked in with the girl and made sure that she was OK and happy before they took their turn. But she was meat; they had no love and her being meat and them having no love may have been part of what made the whole thing so traumatic for her.

    I am not sure if a guy who thinks he has consent but does not care enough to make sure he has consent should be charged with rape but he is a selfish creep.

    If any of the last 8 guys had checked in with that women and asked her if she wanted to stop she probably would have said "yes I want this to stop, I want to go home" She was probably drunk. The whole situation was probably just to overwhelming for her to assert herself or even make her verbal mind function enough to verbally know what she wanted and whether what she wanted was relevant. Sometimes it takes awhile for the verbal mind to be able to process what is going on. The emotional mind is faster but it does not know anything about what her rights are and what consideration civilization says she is entitled to.

    When things get really intense like when you are riding a roller coaster, dropped way to much acid at the concert, just slammed your fingers in the car door and probably when you are having sex with a whole bunch of guys while drunk, the body shuts down the verbal mind for a while because the verbal mind is usually just in the way and diminishing the efficiency of the non-verbal mind in fight or flight or orgasmic situations.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2009
  12. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    I agree if you only think she consented, you should really find out.
     
  13. ili Registered Member

    Messages:
    66
    If the woman orgasms it was not rape.
     
  14. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    and if a man is raped and gets an erection, its not rape, right??
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    Is it possible to coerce arousal? Or stimulate arousal through force?
     
  16. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    Are you joking?

    A woman is not likely to orgasm during a rape but if she does it is still rape.

    A woman could have an orgasm during consensual sex with a guy and still later regret her choice to have sex with the guy. The orgasm reduces the probability of her regretting the sex but does not eliminate the possibility of her regretting the sex. Same is true for guys.

    If consensual sex with an orgasm can be regretted then surely rape is still rape even if the victim has an orgasm.
     
  17. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,913
    It is still rape if you orgasm. Just because you orgasm doesn't mean you wanted to have sex.

    Are you seriously saying that if someone holds a woman down even though she's pounding on his skull with her fists screaming NO and STOP and forces her to have sex, it's not rape because she orgasmed?

    Orgasm isn't consent. It's nothing more than stimulation of a nerve.
     
  18. oiram Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    334
    With all the other problems in the world all we need is some nut job lady out there like this, where is an out of control city bus flying down the street, this lady needs to step out in front of it. If you agreed to have the sex then get over it and the entire rape issue, please!
     
  19. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    She never agreed. It's more that she didn't vocally disagree. Because of this, I'm fine with calling it coersion instead of rape, but this doesn't mean that it was right. The men apparently didn't seem to care much about what she wanted, because no one apparently asked her. As a matter of fact, I believe she alluded to them using belittling tactics to get her to take off her clothes and than take turns on her.
     
  20. oiram Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    334
    Those are excuses, she simply needed to get up and walk out of there if she didn’t want to get a train pulled on her, by her staying and letting t happen means she consented.
     
  21. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    I really curious whether you seriously believe what you wrote.

    How do you know that she knew she could walk out of there? How do you know she could have walked out of there? We don't know if she could have walked out of there because she did not try. From an instinctual historical body memory sort of place submitting to the men's desires may have felt safer than to her than her trying to assert her rights. Based on the story I assume that the guys never checked in with her as the train was being pulled. They should have. She may have needed reassurance that they would honor her right to leave and she may have needed a moment to get her mind around what was happening and how it was making her feel.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  22. oiram Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    334
    You suggest I couldn’t have known if she could have walked out of there, but how do you know for sure that she wasn’t able to walk out of there? Was she an adult? Did she not get herself in there? Could she have yelled to the conductor to stop the train to get off, that her ticket was for another type of passage?

    And was she so traumatized for 7 years not to say anything or did the shrinks get to her and fill her head with delusional thoughts that she is a “victim” so they (The shrinks) can continue to treat her and take her money thus pulling a financial train on her.
    If I walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night in a very bad area and I get mugged, although I didn’t ask to get mugged I am still to blame for putting myself in that situation when common sense would tell me it was a dangerous place to be and that a mugging was very likely to happen. Taking personal responsibility is the key.
     
  23. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    No, all it means is that she didn't resist too much; they were belittling her and there were so many of them; she was also only 19. I must admit, however, that I think it's educational. There is a certain site which I won't mention the name of but it has the word college and fest in it, that apparently films real college parties. Thinking of it, I'm beginning to think that there is a very very fine line between someone who consents via body language and someone who doesn't. Personally I think you can realize a lot from the facial expressions.

    I also think that getting drunk with a bunch of people you don't really know is generally not a good idea. In this particular case though, I don't think she got drunk; she was just belittled into doing something she didn't want to do.
     

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