group sex, is it rape?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, May 14, 2009.

?

is this rape

  1. Yes

    7.3%
  2. No

    75.6%
  3. Other

    14.6%
  4. Want to vote

    2.4%
  1. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    Not an auspicious start to this conversation :-/...


    Who are we talking about exactly? The men in this story? I defend them only in the sense that I think that they did what they thought was best for their personal happiness. I believe that their thought matrix didn't properly take into account the feelings of the woman involved. Labelling people as 'predators' dehumanizes them. They are also the sons and daughters of people, they have siblings, wives and children. You may feel comfortable with such black and white depictions but the truth is not so simple.


    Always. Perhaps you like to bible thump or perhaps you just love the christian notion of evil. I personally think, however, that the religious view of the term is sorely lacking in fact; I strongly believe that everything is rooted in cause and effect. Given this mindset, I find that if people do things that are unnecessarily harmful to others, they do so due to defects in their thought matrix, not because they are 'evil' per se.


    Jeffrey Dahmer was clearly mentally ill from an early age, despite outward signs to the contrary. From wikipedia's entry on him:
    Dahmer's early childhood was normal, but he grew increasingly withdrawn and uncommunicative between the ages of 10 and 15, showing little interests in any hobbies or social interactions.[2] He biked around his neighborhood looking for dead animals, which he dissected at home, going so far as to put a dog's head on a stake.[3]

    So it seems he apparently hid his abnormality by not interacting too much with others, but if you see a kid putting a dog's head on a stake, chances are there's something very wrong going on.


    I try to see why they do what they do. I'm a firm believer that everything has an explanation. I find people who don't have the patience to try to understand the causes to be dangerous; it's clear that people like Jeffrey Dahmer were lacking in empathy; your reaction, though quite normal, is exhibiting the same thing. Perhaps if Dahmer had received treatment as a child, none of what followed would have happened. We can't change the past, but we can learn and attempt to make sure it doesn't happen again.


    I hold sympathy for both; predators may be victims of their environment instead of other predators, but they are still victims.


    For people who can't be cured of their strong potential to harm others, yes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,653
    Muersalt:

    The story in question was not primarily about this incident. It was a story by a reporter on one of the most respected current affairs programmes in Australia - 4 corners. The story was about the pervasive culture of professional rugby league - about how it is hurting people like this woman and how it has to change. This particular incident amounted to about 10 minutes of a 40 minute story.

    Moreover, the woman in question agreed to be interviewed - presumably because she wanted to do her bit to expose the rugby culture. Her face was not shown. And she clearly has not "moved on".

    Wrong. Johns himself admits all relevant parts of the incident. If you don't believe him, who will you believe?

    In other words, you think he should get away scott free. Do you support the existing culture of rugby league that degrades women? Or what?

    John's teammates were happy for him and one other person to take the fall for all of them. Basically, they are gutless. No surprises there.
     
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  5. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    You're being too hard on Rugby. This has absolutely nothing to do with Rugby. It has to do with men. Practically all male celebrities treat women this way. Rock stars are legendary for the treatment of groupies. Was is Wilt Champerlen who claimed to have slept with 10,000 women? Hell, easy access to groupies is a major motivation for men to seek stardom. To quote Dire Straits:

    Now that aint workin thats the way you do it
    You play the guitar on the mtv
    That aint workin thats the way you do it
    Money for nothin and your chicks for free
    Money for nothin and chicks for free

    And John Cougar:

    You got your eye on the cheerleader queen
    You're walkin' her home from school
    You know that she's only seventeen
    She's gonna make you a fool
    You know you can't touch this stuff
    Without money or a brand new car
    Let me give you some good advice young man
    You better learn to play guitar

    [Chorus]

    All women around the world want a phony rock star
    Who plays guitar

    Or how about Grand Funk Railroad describing a situation similiar to the story in the OP:

    Sweet, sweet connie -- doin her act,
    She had the whole show and thats a natural fact.

    Anyway, the point is that Rugby players are hardly the first or or only male celebrities to take advantage of their celebrity status for sexual gratification. Nor will they be the last. Furthermore, most of the females involved know exactly what they're in for, such as "Sweet, sweet Connie" mentioned above:
    Connie Hamzy (born January 9, 1953) is an American woman from Little Rock, Arkansas who is best known as a groupie who claims to have had sex with numerous rock musicians.[1] Hamzy also received some attention for her claim that she was propositioned by Bill Clinton, then governor of Arkansas.[2]

    She is mentioned in Grand Funk Railroad's song "We're an American Band" ("Sweet, sweet Connie, doin' her act/ She had the whole show and that's a natural fact.")[1][2][3]

    Hamzy personally claims to have given oral sex to various members of the many bands that have traveled through Little Rock. Her alleged groupie escapades were detailed in a Cosmopolitan profile in 1974, and in 1992 she wrote a tell-all article for Penthouse.

    In 1991, Hamzy was briefly in the news due to her claim that, in 1984, she had been approached by an Arkansas state trooper on behalf of Bill Clinton. She claimed that she and Clinton had looked for "a place where they could have some privacy for an assignation, but couldn't find one."[4] George Stephanopoulos later recounted that Clinton told him a different story of his meeting with Hamzy. According to Clinton, Hamzy had approached him in a hotel lobby, flipped down her bikini top, and asked him, "What do you think of these?"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Hamzy
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    mad, not to mention Gene Simmons who says he could get anyones wife

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    problem is that women bring it on themselves, that sort of person APPEARS to be what they like (check the "if you could be beautiful or strong, but not both... " thread especially lucy and takandjive's posts if you disagree)
     
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,653
    In Australia there have been a number of high-profile incidents involving Rugby players and teams in the last couple of years. We have other codes of football, such as Australian Rules and Soccer, that don't seem to have the same problem to the same extent. Therefore, it is worth asking the question: what is it about the culture of Rugby in Australia? Which is what the 4 corners programme did.

    Also, why does the bad behaviour of one group of men excuse the bad behaviour of another?

    The incident that is the subject of this thread did not involve a "groupie".

    You're still blaming the victim.

    The two of you here are going out of your way to say "This is normal. What is this woman complaining about? What did she expect would happen?" Why? Male solidarity?

    While it is true that some women are groupies who actively seek out sex with celebrities, you cannot assume that the woman in this case was one of them. And you can't argue that because sex with a groupie may be expected, therefore sex with any woman by a team of football players is just fine.

    What if this was your daughter?

    What if this had happened to you?

    I think you'd be singing a different tune.
     
  9. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    no james im not blaming the "victiom", i dont BELIVE the victom there is a difference. I dont belive she was rapped based on what i have read especially the statements by the NZ police officer in charge who you consistantly missquote (he said he didnt belive based on his investigation that an offence occured but YOU keep quoting him as saying there was not enough evidence, NOT WHAT HE SAID).

    All i was commenting on was mad's post and its true that alot of women (quite old women i might add) will do anything for a "stars" attention (throwing undies on stage at a whatever his name is concert being a great example). If they want to do it its there problem and to be frank i could care less unless it was my partner cheating on me with one of them. However there is a reason male "stars" have the opinions that they could get anyone and its not just because they are full of themselves.
     
  10. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,461
    Who said it does? It's simply that the actions are so common among male celebrities as to almost constitute "normal" behavior. A woman going into that situation is like a sheep amongst a pack of wolves.
    Really? Was she the girlfriend of one of the men involved? Otherwise, if she wasn't anyone's girlfriend, why did she consent to sex with two of them? Sounds like a groupie to me.
    No, I'm just saying there's nothing unique about Rugby players.
    I would hope my daughter would have enough self respect and brains to not become a groupie.
    I consented to sex with two female rugby players and then the rest of the team joined in? Hmmmmm.

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    Might not be so bad.....
     
  11. EmmZ It's an animal thing Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,449
    "She's had enough". Enough of what? At what point during this fun little gathering of willing participants was it up to one of them to call a stop to it? Seems like he ruined her chances of being able to tell all her friends how much of a great time she had in a naked scrum. If that one man thought she'd had enough does that no indicate something other than consensual (verbal or otherwise) was going on? If she was enjoying it surely she'd have told that party pooper to shut up and call next.
     
  12. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    It can and does happen. Its just more likely to be the other way.

    Oh, I know a number of women who've had babies in their 30's.
     
  13. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    You're brain is really three semi indepenent brains. The conscious is in the newest portion which is the most removed from the oldest where your body functions get sorted out. The conscious talks to itself a lot and invents stories where it makes all the decisions in life. But watching the timing via cat and mri, its possible to see that the action often precedes the supposed decision.

    When you are fertile you dress different, act different, smell and taste different and are far more likely to have sex and make "poor" decisions about birth control. If asked your conscious will report your status quo answer, but obviously there more than that meeting the eye.

    Is that really so surprising? I find it more amazing that we have any conscious control over mating (and eating and a host of otherthings) at all. Look around you. How many creatures control their reproduction? Us and a few other primates and maybe some cetateans and carribean reef squid.

    How many obese people, addicts, unexpected mothers do you think there would be if we had full conscious control? You say you don't want babies, but I bet you still like sex and I bet "edgy" sex is even better.

    I'm taking about the getting pregnant part. The how you feel about it after the fact is a whole 'nother story, but again there are lots of people who swore they would have an abortion if it happend to them that "changed" their mind when the instincts kicked in.

    Face it, for the last 1-2 billion years, when we learned how to have sex, every parent of yours decided to have a kid or two. We only had maybe 1 million years of choice.

    Some people never have kids. Humans are insanely diverse. But I know a lot of hardcore partiers with kids. In fact speaking of Metallica "Rockabye Baby! Lullaby Renditions of Metallica." Might be an album in your future

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    Ulrich has three sons, Myles (b. August 5, 1998) and Layne (b. May 6, 2001). and in early 2004 Bryce Thadeus Ulrich-Nielsen.

    Hetfield says he is often happiest spending time with his wife Francesca and their three children: Cali (13 June 1998), Castor (18 May 2000), and Marcella (17 January 2002).

    Hammett has two sons, Angel Ray Keala Hammett (September 29, 2006) and Vincenzo Kainalu Hammett (June 28 2008).

    Robert Trujillo is married and has two children.

    4 out of 4
     

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