Greatest Warriors in Sci-fi

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Fettman, Sep 13, 2007.

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Who is the best?

  1. Space Marines *40k

    8 vote(s)
    23.5%
  2. Klingons *St

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
  3. Mandalorians *Sw

    3 vote(s)
    8.8%
  4. Fremen *Dune

    8 vote(s)
    23.5%
  5. Other

    10 vote(s)
    29.4%
  1. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Some of Warhammer 40,000K is taken from Dune, yes, but also from Star Wars, Star Trek, Alien, andf the novel Starship troopers. Like everything other idea in the world it has borroed heavily. It still does not change that fact that a company of Space Marines would easily take a company of Fremen.
     
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  3. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, I just remembered: Hari Seldon. He worried about the fate of the whole galaxy many, many millennia in advance and created the Foundation and Second Foundation to avoid problems he calculated were coming (including problems with his own calculations). Greatest Worrier in Sci-fi.
     
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  5. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, good. Usually die hard Warhammer 40k fans refuse to believe that Games Workshop is not that creative and usually bust out against other SciFi franchises in imitating the "original." Just testing you.

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    But now since you mentioned the Mobile Infantry (novel), I would have to say they are in fact the greatest warriors in all SciFi. They come from a democracy of military service citizens, a non-corrupt governing system unlike the whole 'God-Emperor' shebang.

    "Personal freedom for all is greatest in history, laws are few, taxes are low, living standards are as high as productivity permits, crime is at its lowest ebb."

    But here's the kicker, not only are they as armored as Space Marines (and just as strong: servo-motors), but they wield mini-nukes, the perfect armament in busting down genetically enhanced super soldiers.

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    [Renrue]
     
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  7. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    Yoda is both a warrior and worrier.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Assuming of course that mininuke would be effective. There are are marine units who would shrug off even a direct hit. Imagine an MI platoons faces when they try to nuke some Terminators and most of them are still standing.


    However there is a another warrior group in SciFi, the CyberKnights of Rifts. Imagine a technologicaly adept psionic soldier who can manifest a blade of energy that can literally harm ANYTHING.
     
  9. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

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    219
    Ah, but that's a big assumption. I believe that the Terminator armor may be able to withstand a non-direct hit and only one. Whereas we can be assured that there will be more than one micro-nuke launched.

    Also, even if we were to through with the assumption Terminators could handle the blast, they are designed for closed-in combat situation with the utmost horrible maneuverability. Last I recalled, all MI were equipped with jump jets (don't even have to be specialized units like Assault Marines).

    The micro-nuclear warhead would definitely pulverize the basic Space Marines (be it any chapter, Grey Knights, etc.). So, with the basic Space Marines eliminated, the Mobile Infantry would make circles around the remaining Terminators.

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    I'm not familiar with Rifts. Is that a table top game like Warhammer 40k?


    [Renrue]
     
  10. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Incorrect, only one would be launched as you do not waste nukes in case there are more enemy. However even a direct hit would leave at least 1/3 of the Terminators completely unscratched and 50% of Chaplains. Being in the blast radius would leave 5/6 of them operational. Of course this is considering open area.

    Last time I checked Stormbolters are not close range weapons and neither are Cyclone missile launchers. MI powersuits are immune to small arms fire, but a bolter is more like some one made a LAW machinegun. Stormbolters are like it has twin barrels. Then there is laser, flamers, plasma cannons, multimelta guns and so on. Not to mention all of them coming with a nasty hand to hand weapon built in.

    You're assuming that the mininukes would be used so quickly. Remeber those were weapons of last resort, or in annhilation. The later of which is not likely to be used. However, a mininuke, as Heinlein described them would leave 2/3 of the marines alive minimum unless they took a direct hit.

    An RPG and home of some of the most dangerous stuff in RPG. To put it to you this way there are suits of Power Armor than can take on Robotech Veritechs and win. Suits like the GlitterBoy can easily survive even Fatman or Little boy, could conceivably be ground zero on a 1 megaton nuke, and whip out shots that would rip through 3 M1A2's sitting in a row. It's just a nasty place.
     
  11. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,166
    I think Daneel Olivaw beats him. Hari only got started because Daneel worried so much... and Daneel surely has the worrying record at 20,000 years!
     
  12. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    Under what assumption are you basing that they could survive a nuke blast radius at all? I remember recalling that Space Marine armor could handle about 3 bolter shots in the exact same spot. As impressive as that sounds, the Bolter is only a mix initial charge/rocket-propelled round with a small detonation charge for extra damage. Which in essence is only matching or not impressively reaching above levels of a basic munitions rounds fired from a gun of today. The speed of an object propelled forward only by a detonation charge meets nowhere the raw power of a nuclear explosion.

    Think about it, a bolt round is hollowed out for three sections of non-momentous collision: Initial rear charge to first propel the round out of the bolter and to ignite the solid rocket fuel, the solid rocket fuel to help increase the velocity mid-flight, and the small explosive charge within the shell. I know the round is around .75 caliber, but a bolter is an inefficient weapon based on the size of the bullet versus the maximum velocity caused by a chemical based explosion.

    I said closed-in, not close range. The reason why the Terminator armor never replaced regular Space Marine armor is because it wasn't maneuverable and the effectiveness of it was diminished. The only time Terminators are worth it are in urban warfare or ships where durability outweighs maneuverability. Sure they have several weapons, but the equipment varies per soldier and would be based on a luck maneuver of who survives. Not that more weapons would equal more lethality. With that said, Terminators are wholly useless versus the MI.

    Again, what assumption is this based on? I'm pretty aware Space Marines were nowhere described in an aftermath of a micro-nuclear warhead strike. I'm sure you're aware of the strength of a nuclear explosion with real world physics. Considering a car traveling 20 miles per hour hitting another vehicle at 20 miles per hour shows how fragile the world really is.

    I'm beginning to wonder how solid the Warhammer 40k universe really is, considering its fluctuating differences in the scale of things. In the lore of things, Space Marines are considered god-like in their indestructibility, but within the same lore, you see some of them falling under many circumstantial things that meet nowhere the criteria they're supposed to be based upon.

    Yes, the epitome of ridiculous. Though, I doubt anyone can become more ridiculous than Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. However, I'm willing to leave out those outrageous anime... because DBZ comes to mind. Not to mention that I doubt anyone has heard of 'Rift'.


    [Renrue]
     
  13. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Okay, so a physics lesson is needed. The destructive blast of any explosion is almost evenly spread over the whole surface of the armor. So the ability of that blast to penetrate the armor is greatly reduced. The armor simply has more area to take the blast.

    As for Bolters they are actyually a little more complicated. They use an explove charge to propell a a massive charge on a relatively flat trajectory for such a weapon. The round itself has a mass reaction triggered fusion detonation warhead driving a self forging fragment forward. In effect it is a mini fusion weapon. Normal space marine armor can easily take three bolter rounds hitting the same place. Terminator armor is much, much tough and backed up by forcefeilds.

    I have no doubt a kiloton level explosive warhead would shred a Space Marine, but the mini nukes are usually in the 100 ton or less category as per Heinlein's descriptions.

    It never replaced other armors becuase it is expensive to make. A Chapter is lucky if it can afford a hundred suits. It is the only armor used on Space Hulks as it's minor shortcomings on the field are assets in ghandingly tight areas like that.

    Becuase I read and understand heinleing. He understood that mininukes for infantry would be .1 kilotons or less. Anything more and you wouldn't be able to fire it form far enough away.

    Well remember that to a normal soldier, Adeptus Astartes are virtually invulnerable. Also that weapons design will always evolve to kill the toughest thing out there.

    Well some of Rifts is reasonable, which is why i kept iot to warriors CyberKnights are on the same level as everything else here and are warriors not soldiers.
     
  14. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    Cut the condescending tone. I'm pretty sure my physics level is equal to yours. You're not basing this on real world physics as you are more on WH40k physics. I'm sure you're aware not many things can handle a nuclear blast and the only reason you can argue this is based on a fictional world. Okay, so an etiquette lesson is needed.

    I think you need to reread up on the mechanism of the bolter. What I said is the exact method of the bolt round based on the real world weapon of the gyrojet rifle. Remember, Warhammer 40k was designed around the late 80s, Games Workshop isn't going to have extensive knowledge of effective weapons such as Gauss or Rail projection capabilities of modern SciFi.

    You are aware that even though Starship Troopers use 'Micro-Nuclear Warheads', all nuclear explosions usually yield a minimum power of strength. And if you really are following Heinlein's description, then you know that those micro-nukes were able to level parts of cities and would create a heat intensity greater then an flamer weapon. True that it would not meet the blast radius of conventional nuclear weapons, but though the radius may be less, it does not mean the epicenter of the explosion is weaker than a bomb.

    True, Terminator armors are harder to make. However, their effectiveness is adamantly described as worthless versus agile opponents. Only in space hulks and maybe tunnel-like areas were Terminators ever truly required (as you mentioned removing their shortcomings). I'm sure if you search, you'll find those statements as well. Not to mention all MI are equipped with jumpjets making each soldier an extremely agile foe. Sure Space Marines can run around jumping on Orks and smacking their faces with Thunder Hammers, but running does not equal being on the bounce like the MI.

    Hey, I can play this game too. I read and understand Heinlein, and I say you're wrong. Amazing. The micro-nuke wasn't used like machine guns or grenades. They were extremely tactile weapons that were used to wipe out large numbers of enemies and bunkered in locations. Adding two to two together, then that would equal a fairly effective weapon in taking out numerous and armored targets.

    All military are designed to kill the toughest thing out there. Otherwise, they would follow the mantra of the Imperial Guard and just throw fodder. However, the MI are just as fiercely loyal to their comrades and cause as the religious zealots of the Adeptus Astartes. They are not throw away toys.

    Still never heard, so I can't dispute this.


    [Renrue]
     
  15. Sardonic Crisis The God Emperor Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    220
    Actually, I'm going to have to agree with TW for once. Rifts warriors are DEADLY. There are many classes in that rpg that would pwn any of the warriors listed on this thread.
     
  16. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Manlodorians rule, the only people that beat back them are then whole galactic republic and the Jedi order.
     
  17. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Actually if your physics level wasd the same you would have realized that your argument is faulty. you're comparing two completely different types of weapons


    I do noter the round is rocket propelled, however it is not a soft launch rocket system like the gyroc. The action of the launch is enough to cycle the weapon like modern firearms. That would have to be one powerful launch.

    Also the standard round is fitted with an explosive warhead of deuterium which is the fuel for fusion reactions. Yes the explosion happens after the round impacts, however against an armored surface his would act as a self forging projectile as I described, just from common sense.

    Actually ask anyone what a 100 ton Dynamite Explosion would do. Better yet look at the video here. That is enough to take out large groups of enemy combatants and level parts of a city. And yes as the weapon is described a fission reaction to have a smaller area of effect the weapon must be weaker. This isn;t like dynamite and C4.

    It is not described as worthless at all. In fact Terminators are some of the most feared units the Marines have. They are simply unable of catching and overrunning faster units. Terminators also enjoy battle field advantage when they deploy as part of a larger unit. They are hard hitting and can take punishment like no tomorrow.

    As for MI troopers, command and scout suits had jump packs. The heavy Marauders did not and most of the infantry was the marauder type.

    Again look above. The weapon was a tactical weapon, not strategic. Once you start messing with kiloton level weapons in cities and tunnels you are almost guaranteeing friendly fire deaths.

    Actually MI are the grunts. They are just as loyal, ferverent and expendable as the Imperial Guard. They are an actual army, unconcerned with number lost if the battle is won. Sometimes not even carring if the battle is won as long as some objectives were achieved. While they are the backbone of the Federation, they are also expendable, each one that dies will be replaced.

    The Adeptus Astartes are actual warrior brotherhood. While they are a military, it bears more resemblance to a mideval knighthood. They aren't draftees or enlistees looking to become a citizen they are carefully groomed and selected warriors who train for 19 years before they are ready to be a Scout.


    CyberKnight
    Juicer
    Glitter Boy
     
  18. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    Manoldorians wiped out a whole world's worth of life in a few hours. And their beskar armor is lightsaber resistant. But Siths are better

    Sith have Force Destruction, it can vaporize anything that gets too close. Siths have Sith Battle Meditation, Siths have lightsaber. Bogan ( Dark Side of the Force ) is stronger then any weapon any Sci-fi warrior have. It can make stars go supernova, make a wormhole, disintergrate stuff. And they even have electromagnetic tropedos for a force attack. Lightsabers can cut through almost anything.
     
  19. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Space marines have Lightsabers too, they are called Power Swords and are generally considered faster than a powerfist, but less powerful. Though the best weapons are the lightning claw, thunder hammer and force weapons.

    As for Rifts, the cyberknights have something better than a Lightsaber. They have a weapon composed of psychic energy. It literally can cut through anything, including things lightsabers could not, like cortosis, mandalorian iron, and vampire flesh. (Rifts vampires are only vulnerabe to wood, silver, light, moving water, magic ,and psionics. You could hit one with a photon torpedo and it would simply just get back up.).
     
  20. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

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    219
    You're right. Mine's not equal to yours, it's superior. And I also begin to wonder where my superiority ends... :bugeye:

    Still, IF you used common sense, then a .75 cal propelled by an explosion would never near hypersonic speeds, only hover around several Machs. However, I do agree the deuterium would create a piercing ability. In the end, I was still right about the mechanism. So what am I, the more knowledgeable on both WH40k and SST?

    You are aware that dynamite explosion in the link was a spread out reaction for the boom effect? A nuclear reaction, described by the book, was the same as a nuclear bomb at a lower scaled. It WOULD be stronger than both dynamite and C4 based on the per square foot distribution. So no, the micro-nuclear warhead is much more powerful than dynamite and C4.

    They are useful, again, for tunnel missions. Otherwise, commanders would just wear them for the increased life expectancy and the greater punishment. But, they would unable to be doing feats of agility like their faster counterparts. Instead would only act as support turrets in the back, as you can tell, not very effective. The lore usually concentrated on the basic Space Marines for a reason.

    Wait, are you talking about the novel or are you going on about the table top version of Starship Troopers? ALL Mobile Infantry troops were equipped with jumpjets in order to traverse the terrain quickly as a shock mobility calvary. They were not traditional infantry, they in fact did have a basic infantry. The MI serve the same prestige role as the Space Marines, albeit more practical and a more truer niche.

    Do you even know the difference between tactical and strategical... And the micro-nukes, though contained, were large. They never fired a micro-nuke in the proximity of fellow MI, and in fact were told on one mission to bring no micro-nuke back. They were willing to fire those babies off at the enemy for maximum carnage.

    Dude! Have you read the novel?! Esprit de corps was there friggin' motto, to never leave a single soldier behind. Also, the Terran Federation had two military wings, the Army and Navy. Within the Army, there were several sections, the MI being the armored calvary role. They had psychics, advanced K-9 units, etc. I think you're seriously mixing up the novel with the table top or cinematic incarnation, where they took the opposite approach from the novel. They would never sacrifice their fellow soldiers if it was a known losing war. Each MI was a volunteer soldier, non-conscript and could leave at any time they wish.

    Do you not recall the entire social structure of the Terran Federation? The whole conception of the novel was that people had to sacrifice for their right to be a citizen. The right to vote, the prestige of being a citizen, etc. were enough to make thousands of people enlist in the Mobile Infantry. These guys pride themselves on their government, their ideals, and their fellow soldiers. Heinlein stressed that social responsibility required individual sacrifice.

    Like I said, religious nutjobs. The Space Marines are prone to be warped and betray their brothers with the same vivacity as they were under the Emperor. Unlike them, the MI prides itself on the logic and validity of their government. So they wouldn't go blind and ever turn on their fellow man. As they creed themselves on their thought, not their screwy religion which bases itself none on the mind.


    [Renrue]
     
  21. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    There is nothing that stands up to the power of Bogan. It can rip apart ships, and make stars go supernona. Sith Swords can cut through anything ( I mean everything and anything ). Bogan can also mutate people, disintergrate stuff and much more.
     
  22. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    The second best ( besides the Sith ) is Mobeil Suit Gundams.
     
  23. Fettman #1 Bounty Hunter Registered Senior Member

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    Autobots and decepticons Gen 1 > All the Gundams

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