Gravity waves detected for the first time ever

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Plazma Inferno!, Jan 12, 2016.

  1. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    Are you talking to me? You linked my post, so you must be talking to me...

    I never said that gravitational waves could only come from black holes. I understood what was linked, and I don't see why you feel like you need to explain this to me, besides an obvious case of Dunning Kruger's disease.

    What he said was that, according to him, the type of waves they picked up are the best evidence that black holes even exist. This method of picking them up is only indirect evidence. You guys keep saying that there is direct observational evidence. If there was direct observational evidence, then he would just be completely wrong about this. People make bold scientific claims all of the time. Some of the pictures on the net must have not survived the scientific scrutiny they would have received from making those claims.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't you? That's OK then.
    I have explained all of that.
    No one claimed we have a real picture of a BH: By the very definition of the name, that is impossible: Irrespective though even before the discovery of gravitational waves, BH's were reasonably certain to exist since there was no other means of describing the effects of spacetime and matter/energy that we see orbiting these beasts. Also the strong evidence of the "Dying Pulse Train" inferred the GR type BH we are familiar with.
    Gravitational waves are of different signals and maybe White Dwarf/Neutron star collision, WD/WD collision, NS/NS collision or even possibly other events.
    The signal or "chirp" aLIGO and the other detector received were absolutely synonymous with that from a BH/BH collision.
    That is why BH's are now as good as confirmed even without any impossible direct picture of a BH.
    What Penrose said supporting that BH's are confirmed......

    http://www.nature.com/news/the-black-hole-collision-that-reshaped-physics-1.19612
    "The LIGO and Virgo teams soon went to work extracting every bit of information possible. At the most fundamental level, the signal gave them an existence proof: the fact that the objects came so close to each other before merging meant that they had to be black holes, because ordinary stars would need to be much bigger. “It is, I think, the clearest indication that black holes are really there,” says Penrose".
     
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  5. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    A real picture of a black hole could exist and you could see a big black hole there, maybe even an accretion disk. That is not even the main reason why we haven't been able to see black holes. The main reason is because they would just be too far away, and our telescopes don't have good enough resolution to be able to see them. You are just confusing the matter, because they are black. But, we cannot even get a good enough picture of that "blackness", comprendo?
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    While others have given up on you, I'll persist.
    [1] We have observed Accretion disks.
    [2]We have not directly observed a BH.
    [3]A BH is nothing but critically curved spacetime with a Singularity at the center hidden by the EH.
    [4]Once again älthough the answer is staring you in the face and you have even mentioned it, yourself, you remain confused. "because they are black".
    [5] Despite never observing them, they have been recently confirmed.
    [6] If the reason why we cannot observe BH's is "because they are too far away" as you now strangely say, why do we observe accretion disks and Quasars?
    [7]What we do see is the effects BH's produce on matter/energy and spacetime within its vicinity.eg: X-Rays, Polar Jets: Accretion disks:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
  8. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    Quasars were discovered, because of the energy they put out. When they first discovered them, they didn't know what they were. That is why they named them quasars to begin with. Then detecting a quasar is no different than detecting a distant galaxy, which has activity in the galactic core. That would include no visual details about the black hole itself. Our telescopes are good enough to see a galaxy, but they are not good enough to focus on an individual star in another galaxy. Most galaxies are really far away. So, we cannot get a good picture of a black hole, because one in another galaxy would be too small and distant. The only reason why you think they can observe accretion disk is because you guys want to call a galactic core of a galaxy an accretion disk.

    There are no pictures of an accretion disk with a black hole in the middle which are real. To get a picture like that, we would have to be able to view an object in a distant galaxy which was smaller than our solar system. It is the same reason why scientist have had such hard problems discovering planets orbiting around other stars, but they have been able to discover some around stars that are close to us in the Milky Way.

    We could possibly be able to see the refraction of light around a black hole. We don't have the capability to do that either. We haven't even been able to see that from the black hole in the center of our own galaxy. Then the black hole in the center of our own galaxy does not have an accretion disk, so we are out of luck seeing that with the current technology.

    If a deep field image was taken around the location of a black hole, we could see it cover up and distort the image around it. That is because there are so many distant galaxies. Then we cannot get a picture like that either, because we can't get a deep field image of a location that far away and in size.
     
  9. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    Think about. If black holes are in the center of galaxies, then we could only spot the black hole in the center of our own galaxy or in the center of a distant galaxy. That would mean that all but one black hole in the universe is in a distant galaxy. The galactic core of galaxies is normally the brightest due to star cluster nebula, so it would keep us from taking a picture of any of them.

    Take a deep field image like this for example,

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    It only looks like there are a lot of galaxies all close together, because there are just so many galaxies that go on forever that the ones in the distance overlap with each other. Then they can be billions of light years away from each other. It looks like there could be a couple of quasars in this picture. Then it is only a picture of the galaxy that the black hole is in. Every dot on this picture is a galaxy. I wouldn't say that I can see planets in this picture, because all of these galaxies have planets in them. That is like what you are trying to convince me of. Then there are no planets in this picture that you can see.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It appears you have hit the nail on the head as usual Schneibs.....
    What do you specifically think a BH will look like?

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    Black space the same as any other region of space! Understand?
    You actually said it yourself. Ignoring accretion disks and lensing effects, the spacetime that makes up a BH is the same as the spacetime that makes up any other region of space, other than the critical curvature, which we don't see anyway.
    Again, despite your beating around the bush and attempted history lesson, a BH could never really be seen. But we do see the evidence that they are there.eg: Cygnus X-1.
    Now you agree with me??? Yes we can see accretion disks, but all we see is the effects on spacetime and matter/energy that the BH at the center causes.
    ps: In case you have forgotten, accretion disks can also form around other objects other then BH's.
    You mean gravitational lensing around a BH.
    The SMBH at the center of the MW and the associated stellar objects, is largely somewhat obscured by dust.
    We can and do see the effects BH's produce on spacetime and matter/energy:
    As I have explained though, we do not see the actual BH or EH.


    I'm beginning to think our friend is simply playing silly buggers and is not here to learn anything.

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    I'll think I'll join you.
     
  11. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    No, only in artist representations...
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No real, really!

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  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_X-1
    Cygnus X-1
    (abbreviated Cyg X-1)[12] is a well-known galactic X-ray source, thought to be a black hole,[13] in theconstellation Cygnus. It was discovered in 1964 during arocket flight and is one of the strongest X-ray sources seen from Earth, producing a peak X-ray flux density of2.3×10−23 Wm−2 Hz−1 (2.3×103 Jansky).[14][15]Cygnus X-1 was the first X-ray source widely accepted to be a black hole and it remains among the most studiedastronomical objects in its class. The compact object is now estimated to have a mass about 14.8 times the mass of the Sun[7] and has been shown to be too small to be any known kind of normal star, or other likely object besides a black hole. If so, the radius of its event horizonis about 44 km.[16]

    Cygnus X-1 belongs to a high-mass X-ray binary system about 6070 ly from the Sun that includes a bluesupergiant variable star designated HDE 226868[17] which it orbits at about 0.2 AU, or 20% of the distance from the Earth to the Sun. A stellar wind from the star provides material for an accretion disk around the X-ray source.[18]Matter in the inner disk is heated to millions of degrees, generating the observed X-rays.[19][20] A pair of jets, arranged perpendicular to the disk, are carrying part of the energy of the infalling material away into interstellar space.[21]
     
  14. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

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    "An artist's impression of the HDE 226868–Cygnus X-1 binary system. ESA/Hubble illustration."

    That is the only picture I see on that link of a black hole and accretion disk. It's subtitle says it is an artist representation...
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    So?
    Let me inform you again: We do have observational data of accretion disks, which along with other data like X-Ray sources etc, indicate a BH at the core.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.space.com/8830-massive-black-hole-bends-light-magnify-distant-galaxy.html

    Massive Black Hole Bends Light to Magnify Distant Galaxy

    By Clara Moskowitz, SPACE.com Assistant Managing Editor | July 27, 2010 10:07am ET

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    This labeled image of the first-ever foreground quasar (blue) lensing a background galaxy (red) was taken with the Keck II telescope and its NIRC-2 instrument using laser guide star adaptive optics. Discovering more of these lenses will allow astronomers to determine the masses of quasars’ host galaxies.
    Credit: F. Courbin/S. G. Djorgovski/G. Meylan/Caltech/EPFL/WMKO
    A giant black hole spouting energy

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    from inside a galaxy is acting like a cosmic magnifying glass, giving astronomers a clear view of an even more distant galaxy behind it.

    It is the first time a quasar ? the central region of a galaxy dominated by an energy-spewing black hole ? has been discovered acting as a gravitational lens. The cosmic lens phenomenon was first predicted by Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity.

    The discovery gives astronomers a glimpse at two galaxies at once, allowing researchers to photograph the distant object while weighing and measuring the intervening galaxy and the bright powerhouse at its core.

    - See more at: http://www.space.com/8830-massive-b...nify-distant-galaxy.html#sthash.ggHjelFF.dpuf
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.spacetelescope.org/news/heic1116/

    Hubble directly observes the disc around a black hole

    4 November 2011

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    A team of scientists has used the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope to observe a quasar accretion disc — a brightly glowing disc of matter that is slowly being sucked into its galaxy’s central black hole. Their study makes use of a novel technique that uses gravitational lensing to give an immense boost to the power of the telescope. The incredible precision of the method has allowed astronomers to directly measure the disc’s size and plot the temperature across different parts of the disc.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.space.com/13504-hubble-image-black-hole-accretion-disk.html

    Hubble Telescope Catches Never-Before-Seen Look at Black Hole's Maw

    By SPACE.com Staff | November 4, 2011 03:20pm ET

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    This Hubble picture shows a quasar that has been gravitationally lensed by a galaxy in the foreground, which can be seen as a faint shape around the two bright images of the quasar.
    Credit: NASA, ESA and J.A. Muñoz (University of Valencia)
    The Hubble Space Telescope has directly observed a disk of matter being sucked into a huge black hole.

    - See more at: http://www.space.com/13504-hubble-image-black-hole-accretion-disk.html#sthash.g4IR5vUY.dpuf
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/01_releases/press_050701.html

    Chandra Pinpoints Edge Of Accretion Disk Around Black Hole
    May 07, 2001


    CXC PR: 01-06

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    Press Image and Caption
    Using four NASA space observatories, astronomers have shown that a flaring black hole source has an accretion disk that stops much farther out than some theories predict. This provides a better understanding of how energy is released when matter spirals into a black hole.

    On April 18, 2000, the Hubble Space Telescope and the Extreme Ultraviolet Explorer observed ultraviolet radiation from the object known as XTE J1118+480, a black hole roughly seven times the mass of the Sun, locked in a close binary orbit with a Sun-like star. Simultaneously, the Rossi X-ray Timing Explorer observed high-energy X-rays from matter plunging toward the black hole, while the Chandra X-ray Observatory focused on the critical energy band between the ultraviolet and high-energy X-rays, providing the link that tied all the data together.

    "By combining the observations of XTE J1118+480 at many different wavelengths, we have found the first clear evidence that the accretion disk can stop farther out," said Jeffrey McClintock of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics who led the Chandra observations. "The Chandra data indicate that this accretion disk gets no closer to the event horizon than about 600 miles, a far cry from the 25 miles that some had expected." Scientists theorize that the accretion disk is truncated there because the material erupts into a hot bubble of gas before taking its final plunge into the black hole.

    Matter stripped from a companion star by a black hole can form a flat, pancake-like structure, called an “accretion disk.” As material spirals toward the inner edge of the accretion disk, it is heated by the immense gravity of the black hole, which causes it to radiate in X-rays. By examining the X-rays, researchers can gauge how far inward the accretion disk extends.

    Most astronomers agree that when material is transferred onto the black hole at a high rate, then the accretion disk will reach to within about 25 miles of the event horizon -- the surface of “no return” for matter or light falling into a black hole. However, scientists disagree on how close the accretion disk comes when the rate of transfer is much less.

    "The breakthrough came when Chandra did not detect the X-ray signature one would expect if the accretion disk came as near as 25 miles," said Ann Esin, a Caltech theoretical astrophysicist who led a group that explored the implications of the observations. "This presents a fundamental problem for models in which the disk extends close to the event horizon."

    In March 2000, XTE J1118+480 experienced a sudden eruption in X-rays that led to the discovery of the object by RXTE. The X-ray source was in a direction where absorption by gas and dust was minimal, allowing ultraviolet and low-energy X-rays to be observed. In the following month, an international team organized observations of XTE J1118+480 in other wavelengths.

    Chandra observed XTE J1118+480 for 27,000 seconds with its Low-Energy Transmission Grating (LETG) and the Advanced CCD Imaging Spectrometer (ACIS). The research team for this investigation also included scientists from both the United States (CfA, MIT, University of Notre Dame, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center) and the United Kingdom (The Open University, University of Southampton, Mullard Radio Astronomy Observatory).

    The LETG was built by the SRON and the Max Planck Institute, and the ACIS instrument by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass., and Penn State University, University Park. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, AL, manages the Chandra program. TRW, Inc., Redondo Beach, Calif., is the prime contractor for the spacecraft. The Smithsonian's Chandra X-ray Center controls science and flight operations from Cambridge, Mass.
     
  20. river Valued Senior Member

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    Really ? No not really .
     
  21. river Valued Senior Member

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    pad it's three dimensional .
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Is that right? Pray tell, what qualifications and what instruments do you possess to study BH candidates such as Cygnus X-1

    ???

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    I think you have probably had too many confrontations with Aliens and the medical procedures that they supposedly conduct.
    Or did you run foul of Bigfoot?

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  23. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    This is not an artist representation of the black hole at the center of the milky way. This is an actual movie of the plotted locations of stars that are orbiting the black hole at the center of our galaxy at incredible speeds:

     

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