Gravitational Time Dilation

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by RajeshTrivedi, May 4, 2015.

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  1. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    XXXXXX / OnlyMe / Brucep......


    Leave aside the personal bickering for a moment.......

    Q. what is the significance of time dt inside EH for a person on Earth ??

    For example Brucep says for that imaginary UMBH it takes 72 Hrs, what is this seventy two hours for a person on Earth ??

    (Request please do not budge the thread with terms like proper time, coordinate time, spatial nature etc, if possible try answering in a language which a layman can understand, because a layman understands time).


    PS : If you agree that time inside EH has no meaning with respect to time outside EH....then does it not mean that Physics inside EH has no meaning with Physics outside EH ? There are four coordinates dx, dy, dz, dt..........first three are same everywhere, dx = dz = dy = 1cm is 1cm inside EH and outside EH........then what so special about dt (or cdt) ?? Are we saying that t is a special dimension at will ?


    Edit : The name of Paddoboy on the top taken off......
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  3. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    I am too getting to that.......if anyone can say for sure what can happens and what cannot happen inside EH possibly is exaggerating.....or something wrong somewhere....
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Tashja,

    I believe paddoboy has answered the question as thoroughly
    as anyone can. As he says, the question has no answer,
    because there is no link between an interval of coordinate
    time inside the horizon and an interval of coordinate time
    outside the horizon; the internal and external coordinate
    systems are not related to each other.

    Cheers!

    Eric
    _________________________________
    Eric Poisson
    Professor of Physics
    University of Guelph


    In the Professors language...
    the internal and external coordinate systems are not related to each other.
    A layman most probably does not understand the true nature of time, but layman mostly are not referring to time within BHs either.
    No it does not. And that has been explained to you in as simple as possible language for you as a layman to understand
    GR gives us clues as to what happens inside BHs, and GR tells us also that it makes no sense talking about time inside BHs as detailed by the Professor.



    I prefer to listen to a properly qualified expert on BH cosmology, [ or two or three or six of them

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    ] rather then your empty headed take on things.
     
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  7. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    OnlyMe ???????

    Time Dilation to infinity and disjoint at EH makes it self contradictory to have observational gravitational effect outside EH ??
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I believe you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Hans Christain Anderson published far more sensible scenarios, then what you chose to babble on about.
     
  9. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    Um.., simple! Seventy-two hours is three days. Right?
     
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  10. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    If you are making a comment about something I post, quote my post.., and make it clear what you think I said.
     
  11. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    There is something you are missing all of the time Rajesh, you need to be clear whether you are discussing a hypothetical constructed within the context of a specific theoretical background, or trying to sus out some reality, in a classical sense?

    What seems clear is that you have difficulty understanding GR, especially as it relates to black holes, so you are trying to resolve your confusion by constructing a classical solution. The problem is that there is nothing classical about a black hole, at lest inside the event horizon.

    If you want to eliminate singularities and event horizons, you have to come up with a solution to EFE (or an alternate theory of gravity), that allows an ultra massive object be be stable with a radius greater than the Schwarzschild radius, or even some radius greater than 4/3Rs. No massive object can be stable with R<=Rs.

    As far as time dilation and black holes are concerned I don't think you are being honest, because you don't understand or believe in black holes to begin with.
     
  12. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, man, you could do that !! So easy ?

    (dt = 72 Hrs inside EH) = (dt = 3 Days of Earth)............You have contradicted Prof, more importantly you have contradicted Paddoboy....



    PS : Less said is better about your knowledge....
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
  13. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    It is your admitted position that you do not believe in singularity !!

    You do not believe in singularity but you believe in BH ?? If thats what you are saying, then do we have anything to argue about my belief or disbelief........
     
  14. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    You write good English, but useless, meaningless stuff....
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    A few rungs up the ladder from the nonsense that you infest the forum with.
    As a nobody posting and claiming to invalidate GR, you remain just that, a nobody.
     
  16. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Since you do not have formal education and neither you have demonstrated that you understand the detailed aspect of reference link which you provide......henceforth I will not respond to any of your reference and copy paste stuff, unless i get convinced that you have understood what you are supplying..........for me you are a.......least value addition member of this forum.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    That's not what you said previously....Just supports the fact that you are a total fraud.

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    I mean so far you have given that "least value member" tag to brucep, origin, and OnlyMe. Can't you be at least consistent?

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    Oh, and after 7 or 8 of your nonsense threads, I'm totally convinced that I know far more then you know.....You rattle off some maths [pinched from the Internet] to try and impress, yet you are totally ignorant of the most basic concepts and postulates of both SR and GR.
    Two Professors have advised you to learn from what I claimed in my posts, and both have also said you need to learn some GR.
    They are correct on all counts.
    As a nobody posting and claiming to invalidate GR, you remain just that, a nobody.
     
  18. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Even without a BH in the picture, SR demands that from the point of view of a photon traveling at the speed of light in a vacuum, time dilation goes to infinity.

    WITH a BH EH in the picture, matter that is "AT REST" relative to the center of the BH or its EH or energy that is "PROPAGATING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT" or close to it with respect to the EH and for propagation that is in a plane tangent with respect to the EH, both matter and energy there are still part of this universe even if not visible, and don't in any sense wink out of existence just because time dilation in the vicinity of a BH is quite large or even infinite in actual fact. Using Newton's laws, the force due to gravity is infinite at the center of masses of arbitrary size, and we know this is not the case.

    We know for certain that matter itself is NEVER really "at rest". We also know for certain that energy is NEVER, "at rest". So there is really no contradiction, other than the mathematical one, here. Physical reality has a way of asserting itself no matter what mathematics pertaining to how it behaves may reside inside your respective heads.
     
  19. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Well said !!

    Present explanation or present understanding of BH or EH is not the reflection of Physical reality.....Since the reality cannot be questioned, the NATURE cannot be questioned.......what needs to be questioned is what resides in our head.............


    The most profound questionable thing which resides in our head is........that singularity is shrouded by the Event Horizon. Thats why Professor could walk out stating that leaving a member doing vinaka vaka dance....
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Except of course we have had around six ot more Professors invalidating everything you have said in all your threads, the most recent of course is the stupidity and nonsense in suggesting that any BNS could form inside a BH.
    Let me repeat....
    As a nobody posting and claiming to invalidate GR, you remain just that, a nobody.
     
  21. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you and Prof. Poisson for bringing that nugget to the discussion Paddoboy. It's what I've ranted about many times since joining sciforums, but it's the first time anyone with such credentials has actually blurted out what is so manifestly clear:

    "there is no link between an interval of coordinate
    time inside the horizon and an interval of coordinate time
    outside the horizon; the internal and external coordinate
    systems"

    There is also no actual link between physical reality and the mathematics pertaining to the geometry of a BH, the dynamics of the energy nor matter that resides there, nor even the vacuum that surrounds it. This is due to no fault of the mathematician. The math is self-consistent except for the spot that manifestly exists in actual reality independent of the failure of SR or GR mathematics to describe nature there.

    Matter is simply bound energy. You cannot "stop" matter by means of time dilation, or force it to become unbound there by means of any of the mathematics associated with Relativity (SR or GR), because it is bound by quantum entanglement, which is considerably faster.
     
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  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    That is not what is accepted. GR makes certain claims...Once the Schwarzchild radius is reached, total collapse follows......The spacetime metric that makes up the BH is a fossil field from whence the star collapsed.
    It is reasonable and logical to be able to accurately ascribe spin to a BH for instance, based on the observation of the ergosphere and the fossil field edict.
    These points have all been verified in this little game that Rajesh has been playing over many threads, by at least six experts and many links.

    His claim that we cannot assign anything to the inside of a BH, is no more then a cop out, and an excuse to get his invalidated BNS considered.
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Time literally stops at the EH. The thing though is we never get to see anything stopped completely at the EH. We see it gradually redshifted and fade from view but never quite reaching or crossing the EH.
    That's why with time it makes no sense to compare with time this side of the EH.
    This in no way though stops us making reasonable logical assumptions based on GR postulates and the general laws of physics.
     
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