GOP is to blame ? No we all are.

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by jpappl, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Here:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/reagan-insider-gop-destroyed-us-economy-2010-08-10

    All of the points made I believe are accurate but I blame the general populace. We didn't have to vote for it but either enough are not educated enough to make wise choices in the voting booth or they knew it was pie in the sky yet they voted for it anyway.

    I have always contended that Reagan was not a leader. Nor were any of those who went along with his policies. All he did was tell everyone what they wanted to hear, not what we had to do.

    Essentially we went from the greatest generation that invested in this country to a bunch of spoiled punks who wanted to have their cake and eat it to. They all felt entitled to something that nobody is entitled to.

    And they put us on a course where they put all of the risk on the backs of the future generations.

    We should all be ashamed for letting this happen and for it continuing to happen.
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    While I'll agree we can't elect good people if they do not run. So we are forced to choose between the better of two bad candidates.
     
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  5. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    We did make wise choices and the Reagan appointed conservative supreme court stole it from us.
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Did we not make wise choices or where they made for us?

    I don't think the influence of money and advertising can be understated. And with the george II debacle in 2000, he was not elected by a majority of voters. And as we all now, the Republican supremes didn't allow a fair ballot count in Florida.
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Everything today is "rigged" to one degree or another.
     
  9. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    Idea, all Smart Americans should move to Canada

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  10. River Ape Valued Senior Member

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    There will always be a tension between profligacy (disregard of the future) and providence (concern for the future). Democracy only gives a vote to the citizens of the present. It is rigged against the citizens of the future -- who are born into debt. (In UK, of about £75,000 per capita.)

    In UK, the House of Lords used to represent the great noble families of the realm, who took a long and wise view, both backwards and forwards, of the good of the country. UK has gone to the dogs as the cult of democracy has emasculated and destroyed this once fine institution, and invested power in the political witlessness of the common man.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    ``````

    I found this part interesting:


    I wish we had let the bad banks fail back then. Who knows? Maybe we'd back on course for more bullshit? Or better off towards a new future? Or grunting and pointing at fire.


    I was at a conference the other day and got to talking with this guy from overseas who was with his wife. He owns his own business (nothing to do with the conference). He used to buy really well made diesel engines from a USA company. Then they shipped the factory to Mexico. The quality went down but they are still OK motors. Then the company shuttered that factory and moved to China. Now the engines are shit. The barrings are absolute shit. Metal is shit.

    He told me he felt very sad for us Americans and thought it was gut wrenching that the USA was going to collapse. How could we stand by and let all the good manufacturing jobs go overseas? He's watched from afar over the last 2 decades as America has hollowed out like a shell. From his point of view the greatest nation ever to exist is coming to an end. He wasn't happy about it either.

    :shrug:
     
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    In voting for presidents in the U.S., the vote of the general population doesn't matter (even if it did, they are not educated / experienced enough to make good decisions). What matters is who is for sale in electoral college and then it's just a bidding war between corporations. This kind of behavior was actually enabled by the GOP, so a massive amount of the blame should definitely go to them (and they should be stripped of power indefinitely).

    The founders of our constitution could not have predicted the evolution of society and politics, nor did they understand a simple rule of reality (discovered via quantum mechanics). If it isn't forbidden, it will happen.

    Likely what we need to do in America is implement a restriction so that government is ALWAYS for the people... not corporations... not theocratic groups... nor foreign power bids... etc. Denmark appears to have a decent model; however, I *suspect* that with a few changes we can achieve similar results in America.

    A good start would be to restrict voting in any category to "professional voters for the people". If you want to vote then you have to earn a B.S. degree on how to do it and dedicate your career to it. Your salary would be publicly funded.
     
  13. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Our (if your American) yet to be born grandchildren will pay big time for the delusions of the voters of the last 30 years.

    Reagan didn't just tell people want they wanted to hear, he also told them what they wanted to hear in the style that they wanted to hear. Reagan played president better than he ever played any role when he was an actor. We should give Reagan an Oscar for his performance as president.

    One of the reasons why Reagan's delivery was some much netter than Bush senior's delivery is that Reagan did not sense the problems ahead. People told Reagan what he wanted to hear and he believed them. The Bush presidents Clinton and Obama don't seem as comfortable as Reagan looked. I think the later 4 suspect that they are full of shit and it disturbs them. Reagan seemed to not be disturbed by the possibility that was wrong.

    Really the people rather than the media, universities, corporations and politicians need to take responsibility for having the bullshit detectors. The people need to punish those who would try to seduce them by telling them the lies they want to hear. It is the job of the media, universities, corporations and politicians to tell the lies people want to hear or tell the lies that their sponsors want told so you can't blame them for doing their job well.
     
  14. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree that we do not have control over the voting process. We just are not exercising that control.

    The bottom line is there are just too many people who are apathetic to the process.

    They care more about who Britney or Lindsay is dating than who the president is.

    The reason Reagan fooled enough people to vote for his policies is because they believed they would come out ahead even though if they had any intelligence at all would realize the cost would be passed on.

    So they, the voter put him in place due to greed and selfishness.

    No matter how you slice it, it's us that is to blame because we have the ability to make changes and to understand what the F8ck is going on around us.

    The problem is on the whole, we are not doing that.
     
  15. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    Nirakar,

    What you're saying is that he actually believed it himself and I don't doubt that.

    But it doesn't matter. Nobody put a gun to our heads. We voted him in and now are suffering from the policies.

    This is my point.
     
  16. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    1,952
    Speak for yourself, I never voted for Reagan, and yes, I did vote.
     
  17. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    There is no 'we'. And certainly no 'we' that wants the same things or even has much interest in freedom, for example. Except the freedom to choose Nike over Adiddas or the Converse(ha ha).
     
  18. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    I didn't either. The WE is us as in all of us.
     
  19. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    That needs to change and will once it gets far worse. Which is unfortunate.
     
  20. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    I am not sure a we forms out of a much worse situation. Unless there is some unifying outer threat. Which is why these keep getting fabricated and only create 'we' long enough to do damage, then the 'we' dissolves. A full out crisis in the US, I think, would create even more certainty on various sides and no we would form.
     
  21. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    Doreen,

    The unifying outer threat in this case is things getting so bad that it forces those who normally are not engaged and only worrying about what shoes to buy to get engaged and via the voting process make the necessary changes.

    This is the problem. There is so much apathy, not only do we have about 50% of the voting populace voting, but of the 50%, the majority of those people are voting for everything except substance.

    They are easily tricked, fooled and bamboozled and as long as their guy or girl is in they are happy.

    It's ridiculous that WE have let things get as bad as they are.

    As I said before like a bunch of spoiled children who want it all but don't want to have to pay for it.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    28,052
    A fairly large number of people have been kicking and screaming, fighting and condemning, writing and talking, and in general not "letting", any of this stuff happen.

    They've been doing this for years. Consistently. Some of them have even been politicians, on occasion.

    These people are not to blame. Do you wish to separate the US citizenry into "we" and these other people?

    The number of people directly bringing the current mess about is fairly small, a fraction of the US ruling class, maybe 28% of the public at most. They can be set apart, written off, and all but ignored for the time being - if the will to confront the suddenly focused situation were there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
  23. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    4,100
    I don't see those currently being messed up by what is happening forming a we. They seem to fall into a number of groups and then these groups are solicited by the two major parties. I don't see, for example, a we amongst the unemployed/working poor.

    Which I don't really see changing. I mean, not in a couple of decades.
    First you train them what to want, then you tell them you will get it for them and the other party won't. Then you tell them that anything outside the two parties leads to Hitler or Stalin, and keep banging this home as if it is reality. They start all this when people are children. And now scientists and psychologists are involved in media presentation of 'reality'.

    It's funny how this last is not seen as a problem.
     

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