Goodbye, Ol' Nation-State

Discussion in 'Politics' started by hypewaders, Jun 17, 2004.

  1. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know about you, but I'm getting the most creepy far-away feeling about my country that I have ever had. I don't feel alone about that, I sense it among certain fellow Americans, among Czechs or Spaniards, or Arabs I've lived around in their "proper" expected home countries. I was born a proud American, but I don't go for all that exceptionalist xenophobic world rampage crap anymore. I want to enjoy my life, cruise the planet, have some laughs, not bother anyone else, and not have them bother me. This hyperpower juggernaut just doesn't appeal to me any more.

    But the American Glory Train is barreling down the tracks with gathering smoke and fury, the bunting is flying everywhere, everybody's all excited, and I just want to jump off before things start moving too fast, and I break my legs landing, or the whole Domination Express leaves the tracks and heads majestically over the brink. One thing is for sure, if I ever get off this thing alive, if I don't get stuck in the hatch with a hundred others trying to jump, then I swear I'll never fall for that "We're the most Badass Train" shit ever again.

    So the point is, maybe a lot of us are outgrowing the need to feel "special" by virtue of membership in a country-club or in a club-country. Perhaps we humans are becoming sufficiently socially evolved (well, some of us) to go out into the larger world as symbiotic individuals, ready to flash the World Citizen passport- "Beat THAT, yooo stupide Americain": Wherever I go, I was born here. Right here on my home planet.

    Now, beyond personal feelings and fantasies, corporations are way out ahead of us. Probably because they have been granted far more mobility and freedoms than people, and without all the baggage. If you took the largest 20 organizations on Earth, I would guess that less than half of them would be governments. If you took the largest 20 corporations on Earth, I would guess 15 are multinational. So the nation-state is no longer Sovereign of the Seas anyway. So who are we kidding?

    Dual citizenship has been my first goal in at least having some kind of escape hatch if the USA starts to roll over. The last time I worked in Europe, it took 6 months to get resident work authorization. But now, we can hopefully hit the ground running, almost anywhere in the EU, if it comes time to bail. From my perspective, the capability of slipping the surly bonds of native nation-state feels like Sweet Freedom. Which I feel not a little guilty about, considering that I did not chance to be born Somali, and through no effort of my own. Knowing what I know from here, or what I imagine knowing from a Somali perspective, well I'd be pissed to be pigeonholed in Somalia. And from thence, the realization hits that we are billions of prisoners of artificial nationalities, and it would be so much better if we could all just mingle.

    That's right. Give me one good reason why we shouldn't, I'll shut up for now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2004
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The thing that bothers me about the globalization, no-borders movement is that one world will inevitably lead to one government. The problem with the USA is that it's gotten too damn big. Big governments have too much power. If you don't like what the gigantic United States government is doing to the world (and United States culture, for that matter), how happy will you be with a One World government and a One World culture? Where are you going to go when you get simply bored, much less exasperated?

    I'd be much happier if the world were fragmented into about a thousand tiny nation-states. None would have enough money, military might, or cultural influence to do too much harm to the others. And if we don't like where we are, it would be a day's drive to the next place.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Are you sure you're not mistaking the misrule of one administration for the trend of an entire nation?
     
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  7. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Fraguel & Spy:

    That's all going to be over in our lifetimes. When all bets are completely off, and it's every man for himself, we're going to start looking each other in the eye again, and like never before.
     
  8. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Please try (and put a little effort in) visualizing six+ billion nation-states, all proclaiming:
    It doesn't take up any more space, & that's where we come together, because there is nothing we can create, or grow, or do, that belongs to anyone else. There is no overlap in the equity of living. Every overlord is a liar. Time, evolution, and technology are swiftly bringing the Moment to call the Bluff.
     
  9. orestes Strategos Registered Senior Member

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    Sadly, as much as I would love equality of power around the world and coexistance between nations, it all comes down to our animal behavoir. Until we can defeat and supress our dark urges for power and control over others, it will never happen. We would need a second reiniscance and a complete change of thinking as humans.
     
  10. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    "We would need a second reiniscance"

    Exactly. A renaissance is long overdue, considering the acceleration of history and communications, and how much we've been through since the last one. Lately we've been stagnating. One good slap, and we'll start a New Day. So crack that whip: Give that bitch a slap! Scream at yo momma! Breathe in some air. Live! It will drive us on, and you can count on that.
     
  11. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

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    Wouldn't the development of the Internet be a second Renaissance?
     
  12. Mr. Chips Banned Banned

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    954
    P2P keeps improving. Maybe someday we'll be sharing more than just digital files. Whoo, then the RIAA would be joined by every other monetary concern in trying to squelch it. I wonder if they will be able to. So far, the sharing continues to ever unprecedented levels despite the RIAA's efforts.
     
  13. Insanely Elite Questions reality. Registered Senior Member

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    360
    I know what you mean hype.

    As for me, I'll stay with the sinking ship. Help people learn to swim.

    My temporary retirement is about to end(running out of $). I'll have to start some gainful employment soon. It takes funds to act the jetsetter, I'll be a caveman.
     
  14. Undecided Banned Banned

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    4,731
    A second renaissance

    Has to occur when society has reached imaginable depths and makes resurgence by a better of society. Has that happened? Not yet, the US is slowly going down the road of the Roman Empire, we aren’t even close to the lights of Florence yet. If you look at it the
    “American enlightenment” period of American history had already passed in the 60-70’s and was abruptly ended by Reagan. America will most likely not be the place of resurgence anyways, the world is moving away from the dominant West into the East. America will decline in importance and will be bogged down by it’s own “that exceptionalist xenophobic world rampage crap”. Most Empires simply self-cannibalize themselves into irrelevancy and collapse. The trend of American society is towards more and more entertainment, and is becoming very anti-intellectual. When you have shows like Entertainment tonight competing with NBC’s nightly news for instance something is wrong. Americans don’t care or want to know about the problems that they face, they want an outlet, always an outlet. Americans know they are “the best” and why bother? I have dual citizen and it’s great, but I do feel that one world would be better. But that is not likely in my lifetime nor yours.

    Give me one good reason why we shouldn't

    Because we can’t, even communism demands a uniform culture.
     
  15. orestes Strategos Registered Senior Member

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    143
    A good analogy. However, Rome's Legoins, tactics, and and overall way of fighting had all been outdated and obselete by the time their empire had collapsed. It was painfully obvious to everyone that Rome was in a declined and weakened position. The U.S., on the other hand, still weilds the power of military might. The latter days of the Roman Republic did not. But I do fear a similar situation sometime in the future for the U.S. If corruption rears its ugly head in my country(though it already has to a point), it will rot from the inside, just like Rome. And we all know what happened when Rome collapsed: Complete power vacum.

    We'll all know when America's time is over. I do wonder what it will be like after that, though.
     
  16. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

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    1,156
    Come now Hype,

    You should be afraid of China, stop picking on the US. At least you can surf this site, view anti-American Material and have your own beliefs. Me thinks you have it Too good.
     
  17. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    China is not setting the Mideast afire.
     
  18. Undecided Banned Banned

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    You should be afraid of China,

    Only America has to fear China, the world loves China right now. Thanks to her hot economy commodity prices are at all time highs, and many third world economies are having a boon. China has no intention for expansion outside her borders (and no legally Taiwan is not outside her borders). China unlike the US is intelligent, instead of threatening nations will military actions she monopolizes their trade and then they become their vassal. That’s the way to do business.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    How frighteningly optimistic. I'm sorry but that is just silly. As long as there are humans there will be war, unless what it means to be human fundamentally changes. EDIT (or I suppose if everyone is powerful enough to be so goddamned scared of fucking with anyone else that they won't if you follow)

    People are individuals, duh... so as a consequence, what they value is subjective. If someone values your resources more than your morals and there is no effective governing power and they are stronger than you, your optimism is moot as you will be dead.

    If they didn't have money or might, some countries would spend all they have to build swords or guns or whatever the hell they could to conquer the country next door and kill or enslave the folks there such that they can have more. More more more more more. The more you try to force people to value what you think they should value, the more likely you are to be killed by those people unless you have a means to ensure your safety such as a powerful government.

    Wake the fuck up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2004
  20. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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    379
    Although it is unlikely, is it perhaps possible that we have actually reached a state in which collapse is impossible? We have seen empires decline in the past over and over, but that was before industrialization, the computer age, and capitalism. We now have the power of mass media, global military power, and machines that can suck resources instantly from the earth. As Orwell suggests, the more advanced a state becomes, the more likely it is to stultify long-term change. Since the US is based soley on the novelty of capitalism, there is no long-term planning and no long-term thoughts, one fading out into the other with no real change taking place. With more widespread rights than we've had in the past, it is possible for ideas and improvements to be more easily implimented to adjust to any possible situation (notice the various civil-rights movements, cultural-transformations, urban-shifts, trends) without causing mass chaos. As long as a market can provide endless consumption, nothing else would be possible.
     
  21. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    532
    Good for you, Hype. When the shit hits the fan you and Bill Gates can bail out and leave the rest of us to suck on it.

    We are going to need everybody with sufficient brains, balls and ovaries to join le resistance - in my opinion a true patriot would stay right here and fight. Some will take to the hills with their shootin' irons, some will stand with their neighbors to keep them from being deported or killed, some will go to jail rather than serve fascism, and some will be dissident as long as possible - and pay the price.

    I ask you; where would the Czech people be right now if Havel had bailed in 1968? Where would the Poles be if Walesa had bailed in 1976? Where would India be if Gandhi had stayed in South Africa and behaved himself in 1913?

    I'm not suggesting that you are a potential revolutionary leader, but people like Havel and Walesa needed all the support they could get - and a future American dissident leader will need support, too, if she/he is not to be immediately silenced. It is up to citizens like us to stay our own course and "pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor".

    How about it?
     
  22. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    1,006
    If the US goes the way of the Romans, and China emerges as the lone superpower, let's see how long such a love affair will last when inevitably China starts asserting Pax Sino on the rest of the world.
     
  23. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

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    1,588
    What's so noble about being a pessimist and fleeing the scene when the heat gets intense? Lack of funds is no excuse for giving up hope. Get busy making more money Hype. Sounds like your personal finances are affecting your better judgement. You have it better than you realize.
     

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