Good week for Justice, bad week for Aschcroft

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Apr 17, 2002.

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Rate Aschcroft's performance so far

  1. Excellent

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Good

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Fair

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Poor

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  5. Fire him

    3 vote(s)
    42.9%
  6. Prosecute him

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    It is, judging by the score, a good week for Justice and a bad week for John Ashcroft:

    Civil Rights Lawyers Sue Ashcroft

    • Judge Backs Oregon Assisted-Suicide

    Four words nagging at my conscience, but it's not my place to repeat them.

    But it seems that early concerns about Ashcroft's stance on civil rights were, in some sense, justified.
    My own focus was on the drug war at the time of his appointment; 9/11 has certainly shifted that focus. But that drug-war concern arose from Ashcroft's appointment to an office that would prosecute the drug war in a time when civil rights and the US Constitution had been sent packing to hell. In the present situation ... well, I'm not surprised.
    Ashcroft even took some heat last November for his lack of focus on the immediate challenge (e.g. War on Terrorism) in seeking to rumble with Oregonians. (Click here for a Washington Post editorial on the same.)

    Poor Ashcroft!

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    Can't the poor guy just win one every now and then? Bush hasn't caught bin Laden yet, and Aschroft keeps slamming into the ground every time he leaps after his quarry. It's starting to look like a Road Runner cartoon over in the Executive.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    From what little I know of the guy, he should be removed from office. Not for his persinal views, not for anything particular about him, but because it's simply a very bad idea to put such religious people in state office.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes ... but ....

    Fair enough. But by that standard there goes President Bush and a good number of Congress. I have to admit, many reasons have occurred to me to oppose the current administration, but outright bigotry hadn't occurred to me in such a directly applicable manner.

    Interesting point. Interesting point, indeed.

    thanx much,
    Tiassa

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  7. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Is there a "Have some goons try to beat a clue into his thick skull!" option?

    Tiassa:
    "He loved Big Brother" ? or are they nasty comments about Lord Protector Ashcroft?
     
  8. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

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    751
    Personally i think that a good week for justice is a bad week for ashcroft by default.
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Actually, Xev

    The four words are some that I'll be aiming at my non-electronic circle of associates, which I reserve from Sciforums because they don't apply quite right. But those words are, I told you so.

    Really, who that is/was not blinded by devotion to either the right wing itself or the bandwagon of whoever wins each election didn't see this coming? Admittedly, seeing 9/11 coming is its own little thing; I saw it coming but I never could have been so specific as this date, this time, this place, this method, but come on ... who didn't know someone would eventually kick us in the national jimmy?

    That aside, when it comes to Ashcroft and trampling the constitution ... yeah, those four words are I told you so.

    There's nothing going on here that is surprising, I suppose that's the point.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    (PS--as to the goon squad ... do you really think it would have any effect?

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    )
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Neutrino Albatross ...

    Indeed, indeed ... there is nothing going on these days that should surprise anyone.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    [nerd joke ]

    Ascroft has two neurons to string together, give him that.

    Unfortunatly, one of them is inhibitory[/ nerd joke]
     
  12. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    751
    Xev,

    The other problem of course is that he has only two.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    From the "We Told You So" department

    There were many, many who more vigorously opposed Ashcroft over a broader range of issues than I. And here, I must admit to a post-election malaise. I didn't really give a rat's behind what was going on in the Bush White House ... well, I saw the Enron thing coming ... but ... yeah. This is from the left wing, the American people, and anyone else who falls within the We Told You So department ....

    • Anti-Ashcroft Organizations pertaining to the nomination of John Ashcroft for United States Attorney General.

    •I just checked in with the Capitol Steps, a comedy troupe out of Washington, DC. They have a song set to Weber's Music of the Night lampooning Ashcroft (and, incidentally, Diane Feinstein), but the best I've been able to find on the web is a 30-second .ram that only gets to the part about Clinton calling Ashcroft a weenie. (Catch me on AIM and I'll cough up the song--5.8 mb/320kbs .mp3).

    But it's all in fun ... well, unless you're of Middle Eastern descent, a woman, a drug user, or the late Senator Carnahan.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  14. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Oregon’s Assisted Suicide Law was put in place by democratic means, reaffirmed overwhelmingly by democratic means, then Attorney General Ashcroft, without hearing or request for intervention, attempted to unilaterally over-ride the Will Of The People.

    I was glad he got his ass handed to him.

    I believe with all my heart and soul that John Ashcroft is the most dangerous high-ranking official in the United States. Thankfully we have judicial review otherwise, Ashcroft could well have his own happy little police state in this country.

    Peace.
     
  15. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,415
    Re: Yes ... but ....

    Well, I don't like Bush being in office either. I think people moving into public office should have to renouce all affiliations to religious organisations and political lobby groups and such. All agendas apart from those specific to their office should be set aside. This is not bigotry. This is common sense. I suppose, on the other hand, you might prefer it if Billybob Fenton, from a long line of KKK life members, got into office and started distributing leaflets condemning Africans as sub-humans? Freedom of speech laws would seem to protect his right to do just that.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Actually, it IS bigotry, and other notes

    Actually, it is bigotry. The agenda of the human conscience is part of the measure of a person. If you look through American history, you'll see that we have a penchant for electing Christians to public office that is, in fact, excessive of the demographic balance in this country. (I'm perfectly willing to posit that if Al Gore had not selected a Jewish running mate, he would have won the election by a broad enough margin to win the electoral.)

    However, it is a far cry from not voting for a black or Jewish or female candidate because of those specific factors to prohibit them from running for office or from being a candidate for public office.

    South Carolina forbids atheists from holding public office by requiring all electoral victors to pronounce faith in God. We debated it here once upon a time. A long time ago. While, yes, it's illegal to do so, the people of South Carolina don't seem to mind, and no candidate has ever challenged that law in court, which challenge would win. Just an interesting counterpoint.

    We might note, also, that the First Amendment to the Constitution protects the right of all people to be treated equally in matters of individual conscience, and in this country both the basis of conscience and the factors of conscience themselves are considered in the public sphere. To forbid Christians from office because they're Christians ... well, it's just flat wrong.

    It's not bigotry ...

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    Yeah, Adam, actually, it is bigotry.
    You've never heard of David Duke? From a KKK heritage? Elected to state and later federal office by the good people of Lou'siana? On the federal level, it was more of a sideshow than anything else, but ask any black American old enough to remember civil rights about such politicians in office. And yes, the First Amendment guarantees Mr Fenton's right to condemn Africans as subhumans. And he's perfectly welcome to run for public office. I actually enjoy watching those types get butchered in the public arena. It serves as a reminder that you can't behave that way.

    And, frankly, of those communities that do elect such people? Well? It's Louisiana, or South Carolina. The glory days of the Carolinas are past and Louisiana is best known as the target of incest and stupid jokes. After all, it was the Louisiana state assembly that once tried to legally render  to equal 3.0 because it was too hard for high school students to do math otherwise. Let's put it this way: the Charleston, a famous American dance, is named after the city in South Carolina. The origin of the Charleston is such that the black slaves learned the maneuver because, by certain Christian prohibitions against dancing, the Charleston didn't qualify because you don't cross your feet or your knees, or something quite silly like that. There's a reason South Carolina's glory days are past.

    But the law in this country does, indeed, protect such idiocy as free speech.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  17. Adam and Tiassa,

    Stop insulting all christians by calling Bush and Ashcroft christian. I wouldn't mind if we had true christians in office. Unfortunately, people like Ashcroft and Bush don't stand for anything(except themselves and corporate America).

    Tom
     
  18. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, I see now. It's okay for the people to limit or punish free speech as they see fit, without law or regulation. It's just a problem if the state does it.

    It's not the beliefs I really have a problem with. It's the agendas based on those beliefs. Those agendas should be forced aside by the office.

    Joeblow, you're right, the whackos don't represent the whole.
     
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Joeblow93132

    They are Christians, I call them Christians. Let's not be Orwellian.
     
  20. Xev,

    Just because Bush and Ashcroft call themselves Christians does NOT make them so. I would say that their policies are closer to Satan than to Christ.

    Which one of their policies would you call a "Christian" policy???Besides their pro-life policy(which is a republican policy, as well) they DO NOT have any Christian policies.


    Tom
     
  21. pragmathen 0001 1111 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    452
    Satan & Christ--we brothers two!

    <b>Joeblow93132</b>,

    I see that you'd like to distance both Bush and Ashcroft from Christianity because you see them giving Xtianity a bad image. I'm sure you're very selective in how you want to distance them, however. Would you still say they were closer to Satan when they spout out things like, "Cloning is bad", "Abortion is evil", "Terrorism is evil unless it's supported by allies or the US"?

    If you're worried about Christianity's tarnished image, well, then you have a right to be. It's not like people can say, "Remember that one super-evil athiest guy? Yeah, that guy was right off!" As for Christianity, a sample conversation could be, "Remember that one time Christianity really went out of its way to destroy alot of people and destroy its image?" 'Wait a sec, are you talking about recently or not too long ago, or just at its inception?'

    Even having any policies closer to Satan is in someway linked to Christianity anyway. Who believes in Satan? Christians.

    Thanks!

    prag
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Um ... Adam, to what do you refer?

    (I would clarify what appears to be the problem here, but since we know zero on the subject of Adam, and since you've already bitched that I ramble in my posts, I'll just wait for you to explain what the hell that means. Nor will I hold my breath while waiting.)
    Write the legislation and e-mail it to me. Can you find the US Constitution and its Amendments online or do I need to post links for you? Just make sure that your proposed legislation does not violate the standards prescribed by the Constitution or its amendments.
    Now, the fact that Bush lost the total popular vote aside, it's worth pointing our just how many people those whackos represent. After all, Bush got enough support where it counted. But who did the "real" Christians vote for? Gore/Liebermann?

    thanx much,
    Tiassa

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  23. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa

    You support the politician's right to have an opinion, and you support that opinion being his/her downfall due to public harrassment? Then why not state harrassment?
     

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