"Goldilocks" Planet Found, Could Possibly Support Human Life

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by TruthSeeker, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. dhcracker Registered Senior Member

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    196
    Just wait till the aliens land there and let them copy us....

    Lazy way out guys LETS GO THERE! Build me a spaceship I don't want my clone in the stars I WANT TO GO lol.
     
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  3. dhcracker Registered Senior Member

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    Did you know the harder you work and the more you abuse your back the straighter it gets? Thats if you maintain a proper posture and work to keep yourself righted and don't slump with that additional weight often. When I was 19 yrs old my back actually straightened up, the doctors said that was very bad and immediately fixed it back... well that was FAR WORSE. My back had took that position to deal with the way I was treating it, when it was forced back it took years and years to get back somewhat straight and able to do the work I used to do. Your muscles also bear weight and if you nourish them the smaller ones that support your spine can act as skeletal structure. This is the condition in my back, sure it hurts sometimes but it does the job just fine and it adapts. People try to fix pain too much sometimes if you tolerate it or treat it it fixes itself. Thats how we evolved this far to begin with we didn't have surgeons and doctors to maintain our current structure.
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Ha! the only way you or any of us will go is if aliens did come and take us!

    Also I assure you that 1.5g is going to cause serious back problems in most people, there is only so much the back can adapt, without having to evolve. Also if we lived how we evolved we would be lucky to make it to forty, doctors and surgeons have given us unnaturally long lifespans.
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I think that is correct as I was assuming you wanted to send copies of existing people to distant planet. Now it seems you want to reanimate dead people on that distant planet. (Most would rather be re-animated here on Earth, I think.)

    I agree (and already said) that reading, coping as information, and transmitting to distant planet the DNA is a trivial problem. Even the reconstruction of real DNA by robotic chemical lab on the distant planet 100 years from now is trivial – Venture has already done all that, but of course to make his artificial life he had to use a natural cell, and just swap out its DNA for his chemical lab version.

    Making a natural cell, a very complex structure with dozen of complex sub-components is much harder than just replicating DNA, but with luck, perhaps even that will be possible in a chem. lab 100 years from now, but I tend to doubt it will be, However let’s assume man can make a living single cell organism by then fully from stored information and chemicals – perhaps even a fertilized human egg cell. Then it would be silly to copy some dead person’s DNA rather than use our understanding of DNA (100 years from now) to make a much better human fertilized egg - free of the thousand of genetic defects all have, and probably of better basic design. For example eliminated all auto-immune diseases like arthritis, etc. and correct design defect which allow big teeth in small jaws. (This information in the current human design is independently stored in the DNA, but needs to be linked so that big teeth only appear in big jaws.) Etc. for a thousand other obvious design errors in current human DNA. (That says a lot about the creationist’s “intelligent designer” – if he exists he was quite stupid and acted at random it seems.)

    Without going into too much detail, your following description of what needs to be measured and recorded as information for reconstruction of a human brain is grossly inadequate:
    You say nothing about how the neurons are use. For example for motor neurons, like Perkenji cells, what mussel cell is it axon terminates on. Does it blink my eye or wiggle my big toe, etc. Likewise nothing is said about what peripheral sensors (transducers) the neuron receives input data form. A brain designed with your information would neither know anything about the external world nor be able to do anything, except possibly think. – At best it would be the philosophically discussed “brain in a bottle.” (Which I strongly believe can not even think as there is no meaning in neural discharges that have not be conditioned by interactions with the real world.)

    Also you must also tell specifically where on each dendrite of the dendrite tree each pre synaptic neuron connects. And some details as to the strength of the “Na pump” each has. (A strong pump will clear the Na ions from the interior of the axon quickly and allow it to discharge in less than 0.001 seconds but most neurons have much lower potential firing rates. The discharge of a neuron is the sudden influx of Na ions at a point near the cell body which causes subsequent influx on Na ions further away from the cell body (I.e. a depolarization wave, raising the internal voltage slightly positive from the normal “resting potential” of about -70mV, propagating down the axon is what a neural discharge (or firing) is. This has a speed of propagation and that depends on the structure of the Gila cells that wrap around the axon if any. (Mylinated vs. bare axons) You said nothing about these Gila cells, which until quite recently were thought of as “just insulation” to keep neuron’s axons from shorting out as they travel parallel in great “white fiber bundles” but it is more complex still in that there are gaps between two nearby Gila cells wrapping around a given axon (called Nodes of Rainer) which is where the Na ions diffuse thru the axon walls.

    You say nothing about the gross architecture of the brain – I.e. where these bundles of white fibers go. (They occupy about half of the brain.)

    To make a simple analogy to show how inadequate your information is, consider a forest when every tree is numbered as is every leaf and there is a table of their connections, giving the connection strength. That is totally inadequate for a reconstruction of the forest – Nothing is said about the geometry of the limbs of each tree (structure of each nerves dendrite tree) nor where on each limb the leaf is connected. (The nano scale geometry of the synaptic connections)

    So as summary of the above: A brain built with the information you specify would not be able to do anything, nor would it know an external world exists, and it could a best make meaningless neural impulses it if worked at all. Probably it would be a relaxation oscillator which went into elliptic fits for about a minute and then fell silent until the metabolic processes could pump the Na ions back out of the axons again.

    But if you want “humans” on a distant planet DON’T COPY ANY ONE'S DNA. Also, don’t try to specify how the neurons are inter connected. Do it the natural way. I.e. a great deal of the gross connections is specified in the DNA. For example optical information from the eye’s optical sensors goes mainly to a DNA specified tiny part of the LGN (the pulmar section on the lower posterior part) and then to the back of the head, the area called V1. (Optical data goes directly, also under DNA instruction s to several other parts of the brain – that makes “blind sight” possible. Even a cortically blind person (V1 all dead due to stroke of resection) will still shape their hand correctly to grasp a glass or differently but correctly to take a ball from your hand BEFORE any physical contact is made - just by their "blind sight." (processing in the superior collicus, as I recall.)

    SUMMARY of how to get “humans” onto a distant planet. Send robots and the tools / supplies they need, along with “greatly improved” DNA instructions for building the bodies you want naturally. I.e. they make a single fertilized egg cell and raise it in the correct environment to become a baby. Then they educate* it so it will discard most of the neural connections which were made at random but do not provide any functional with benefits (exactly as natural born babies do) after a dozen or so years you will have a functional teenage there.

    *Stimulate the sensory transducers like retina etc. and reward the useful motor responses, like an effort to grasp a toy.

    Note some of the medical terms probably are not spelled correctly.

    BTW, the "improved DNA" humans will have bigger feet, straighter spines with stronger vertebra - easy mods 100 years from now - for 1.5 G environment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2010
  8. dhcracker Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Yes but sometimes they think bad when they shouldn't. They often want to fix everything and that is just an example, if we tried to evolve straight backs they would cut us up and fix them to keep us "normal".

    I agree in most people they will have serious problems, but I also think they will survive and then the next generation won't have such serious problems, then the next.. so on and so forth.

    I'd be willing to take a bad back for a new view of the cosmos. People could walk with crutches to relieve the stress if necessary and I bet they would still go.

    But .. thats right up there we won't get to go. Depressing...
     
  9. dhcracker Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    196
    Somebody has been watching sci-fi science lol.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    If a means of non-destructive scanning comes into being by all means send live people

    All you need are the enzymes and essential energy carriers. It could probably done near term but it would be frivolous to do when you can just strip out a living cell. If worse came to worse the probe could bring a cellular stock with it.

    I already implied genetic modification (well actually just artificial design) in silico would be a necessity anyways.

    Since we may enter a completely sterile solar system, why have an immune system at all? Heck even a planet with alien life could be trumped by simply having opposite chirality and a few passive immunological mechanism, no active immune system, but if we did need an active immune system certianly we could design a better one then the over convoluted hog-pod system we have.

    I always argued that all the stupidities of our design is proof we were not created by a benevolent omnipotent creator, only a drunken one at best. External testicles is a favorite example of a silly design only evolution would come up with, we could have simply evolved sperm production to core body temperature (as it did in birds) but because we evolved by random mutation its limited to what mutations come up, so instead of mutations for spermogenisis at core body temperature, a mutation that just put the testicles on the outside of the body came up and evolution said "fuck it, it works!" despite how inconvenient and stupid it is. Other examples of things so stupid they could not be designed: Recurrent laryngeal nerve, Coccyx, nipples on men, etc.

    Who cares we are just trying to simulate your mind, not your body, your going to be put in a new body anyways. Heck they could just run you in silico and have you re-learn how to move and then wipe your memory of your virtual phyisical therapy.


    Yes but since it is based on a brain from the real world there would be meaning.

    simple scaler values, it could be reduce to one scaler value determining strength of connection.

    A few environmental vector values at most.

    if you now which neurons are connect to which and the delay time for each connection you can map the brain.

    All redundant, it all leads to connection strength which could be reduce to just one scalar value. Its been done before we manage to accurately simulate a nematode "brain" mind you there only 302 neurons there, and its not simply a matter of upscale a nematode brain several hundred million times as there are variety to chemotaxis we don't understand well in the human brain that aren't present in a nematode because well its a microscopic worm that does not really think or remember. But it does provide a basis of evidence that a nervous system is not too complex to be beyond mapping and simulating.

    summary: all points argued against, revise your counter argument.




    All for that when I said "standardize artificially intelligent system" since the body be it bioroid or purely robotic will invariable be artificial, might as well standards its sub-systems. This would also solve the body connection problem cause with a universals interface bus there no need to learn how to use new bodies.

    yeah sure only by the time we could do this we would have past the singularity and transhumanism will have developed mind uploading for completely separate goals (immortality) so why grow new people and teach them (how antiquated that will be by then!) when you could just upload.
     
  11. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    2,257

    Mod comment:

    Let's keep the pseudoscience, the science fiction, and the religious denigrations out of the picture here. I will be forced to take action if that does not happen.
     
  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Just delete the woo-woo, trolling and flaming, or edit those portions out of the posts if it's not too difficult and there's something in the post worth keeping. That's what I do.
     

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