God or Devil

Discussion in 'Religion' started by birch, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Remember this flash from the exorcist? I want to use this for a speculative analogy.

    I remember when i first saw this image that it didn't strike me as evil so much as a tortured soul/being. it may do evil things because it is so disastrously bereft of good it's almost insane or is. in short, it is a shadow of a corrupt puppeteer and this was it's twisted fate. it's just that shocked image in it's eyes of having lost it's soul, so to speak, the verge or on the verge of complete insanity. the sense of torture and disempowerment is visceral. this is not an entity with the real power.

    But i wonder what 'caused' this hypothetical being to be or become this way. the most evil people i've known were not the ones who were almost dying, bereft, lacking, tortured but almost leech-like, full, bloated, narcissistic, spoilt so therefore easily manipulative, perverted, callous, insensitive etc. they were not disempowered but powerful but would have no qualms about doing things which would cause utter devastation and evil and lack and suffering etc.

    this concept of 'reap what you sow' is a double-sided coin as well as a duality. you can reap good (gain, benefit, power) for yourself at the evil sow (loss, suffering, damage) or expense of another. people don't consider that reality and it happens on the 'other' or underworld side of things as in what people do not admit to doing.

    what or who is really god or the devil? i see god/satan as synonymous and the devil it's designed slave, possibly by horrendous torture/mutilation to shape it. or it could be the actual shadow/refuse of an entity/soul god has used/abused/tortured/stolen from to gain more power sucking it almost completely dry. notice the gaunt skeletal death look.

    This image and the so-called 'demons' in the film i find to be disparate. whatever the ringleader was i don't consider it to be a demon. i think real evil and perversion has a much higher power that is orchestrated for the purpose of gratuitious pleasure which is seen in the contempt and obnoxiousness expressed by the evil entities in the film.

    maybe GOD is the real ultimate evil, demons it's chained slaves/shadow of god and evil/scum people it's true acolytes while the rest have been fooled or hoodwinked about the truth that it may be flip-flopped or a case of purposeful mistaken identity and/or scapegoating or deflection/projection.

    i have noticed corrupt people to point fingers knowingly at damaged people as evidence of 'their' evil when it was actually caused by another and they weren't doing anything wrong anyways. i couldn't believe it when i witnessed it as it was very creepy and ugly as hell. it was very similar in style to even the mannerisms and pathetic pettiness in the film. they were like 'look at you! look at you! look at your state now!'. it was taunting and had a very scummy, almost cowardly but obnoxious vibe about it. i would liken that to a scummy human acolyte, maybe not a demon. you can't blame everything on the 'devil' or the 'devil made me do it'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
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  3. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    I think it's interesting that Christian imagery is the same whether it's church or a horror movie.
     
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  5. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    If an omnipotent god created everything, that god is responsible for everything. Humans cannot be anything but what god created. Same with angels & demons. Following a cake recipe & being upset with not getting a pie is stupid & immature, at best.

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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Unless it's a chaotic process, with emergent properties. i.e the outcome is not predictable from the input.
     
  8. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    That does not fit with omnipotence.

    IF the creator is not omnipotent, its responsibility might be less. It still would have no credible basis for condemning humans for being human. Or demons for being demons.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2017
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    When one sets up a maze and lets a mouse loose in it, one does not redirect the mouse every time it goes down a path that has no cheese.

    Sure, the experimenter is responsible for the mouse's circumstances - he has bred the mouse, built the maze, added the cheese, and put the mouse in the maze.

    Well ... if he hadn't done those things, the mouse would have no home, no food and not be alive. So, for the mouse to exist, the experimenter has done right by it. And he has set it free in the maze to to do as it pleases, and has even provided food.

    Is the experimenter still literally responsible for the mouse's poorly-chosen paths to find the cheese?
     
  10. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    hmm.. so it all okay. human trafficking, slavery, abuse, rape, murder, disease, and all forms of suffering. unceasing life predating on life. why don't you petition to bring back the gladiatoral games? why not throw people to lions, i read that was considered entertainment. oh, what a great creator and oh so good standards. you have excellent taste.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Standards are a human invention.
    And all those crimes are human inventions.
     
  12. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    He's still responsible for the Path of Eternal Torment.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

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    honestly, your mind and conventions are as programmed as a doornail.
     
  14. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    http://www.christianity.com/church/...hael-servetus-burned-for-heresy-11629984.html

    not only does these past wrongs anger me but the fact it's not acknowledged by most christians today or muslims for that matter. what does that say about where we exist?

    the trinity being three separate beings does make more sense. needing works as well as belief for salvation does make more sense.

    what does that suspiciously indicate when the real blasphemers and dishonest are the winners here? how the hell is the father, son and holy ghost the same? it is even clear that the old testament god is not even the same as the new testament. one is a flaming conservative and the other a flaming liberal. the only blasphemy of perversion is joining them together as if they are one and we see the hoops christians try to jump through even today and their conundrum with the contradiction with that, don't we? so he was right, metaphorically and allegorically. oh honey, angel and devil are one and the same. just like hot and cold, salt and pepper, a rabbit and bicycle. haha, because i say so.

    how does salvation without works mean anything? because action proves, words mean nothing or can be lies. so if a professed christian lies, steals, rapes and murders but asked for forgiveness and just by belief, they are given salvation as in washing away sins as well as enter heaven, then heaven won't be heaven with such disingenuous people who are just abusing it, will it?

    of course he made more sense, that's why he was killed! and even today, they refuse to reform their religion, holding onto the unethical teachings and indirectly condoning all that was responsible for the atrocities to not just any people but people who were good or even right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Heh. The irony here is palpable.

    What you said is that it is such a cliche. As if programmed.

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  16. birch Valued Senior Member

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    heh, that's not even fair. if i was saying the usual rhetoric either way, no one would really criticize because it's in the pc safe zone. the story must go that it's christians vs muslims, muslims vs christians, atheists vs theists but you bring up the that the creator of the 'universe' and therefore the universe itself could be imperfect, wrong or evil, that is a big no-no. you know, the laws of the universe as they are. the horror. the heresy. then you see how atheists and theists alike unite. and the one or ones who bring it up are insolent, must think they are superior etc when that was not the point. oh yeah, they did kill off the gnostics and destroyed all their writings that they could find. lmao.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Some people argue by putting words in other people's mouths and then attacking that. This is what you're doing.

    I don't subscribe to any pc safe zone.
    I don't believe the story must go.
    I don't believe in any no-nos.
    I don't think there's any horror here.

    And I doubt anyone else does either. So, to whom do you attribute all these egregious things?

    You've created a hypothetical 'they', based on your own self-fulfilling expectations. What you have posted, in its entirety, is a strawman argument, and it's not arguing to good faith.

    I challenge you to have the courage of your convictions. State your views without creating some hypothetical people and assigning them hypothetical actions, that are somehow disempowering to you, and which you can judge as harsh as you wish.
     
  18. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    it's also because theists believe the perfect god (one?) created this universe. it doesn't really make any dents in most atheist's points of view of the universe in all it's supposed perfection. but the gnostic point of view offends just about everyone who identifies in it's totality. it's like offending someone's nation or country with the possibility it's not so great or right. it's an identification thing. i don't really get it though. i don't see the universe in such a personal manner or whether someone criticizes it or not.

    also, by analyzing it in unorthodox ways is also considered rocking the boat. but i don't see why anyone cares as both atheists and theists go at eachother. since for this topic it's an abstract idea and that metaphorically no being is infallible so god can just as well be evil and the devil can be good. i think that is very apt in this existence whether it be god, deity, higher power, angels, demons, people, ideas etc. they could all be impostors or liars or deceivers or truthful but i doubt infallible. blind faith is uncalled for.

    for instance the story of adam and eve with the tree of knowledge of good and evil can be interpreted as god was keeping them ignorant and oppressed and the devil was telling them knowledge is how you attain enlightenment. the expulsion from the garden of eden could be a form of spite.

    or it could be that it just stood for the increased evolution of the brain so the expulsion was symbolic of a rise away from the lower animal kingdom. god stated they would die if they ate from the forbidden fruit. we are more aware of death than other lifeforms. we are the only ones so far who bury our dead/loved ones or think of concepts of the afterlife.

    or it could be that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a contrived allegory to illustrate the duality of existence in this universe. god stated they would die from the forbidden fruit, devil symbolic of death who was tempting/luring them. either knowingly for the predatorial or through deceit for prey, this incarnation? this place is the forbidden fruit. the willingness to kill to live means choosing the devil. predator/prey. life results in death. there is no life without death here. life depends on the death of something else.

    anyway, the god of this plane seems to be a lower form of consciousness manifested as sadistic predator/prey dichotomy. that's why the gnostics had the views they did.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This phrase is an example of what I'm talking about.

    It use the passive voice of "X is done" rather than the active "Y does X" to shady effect: no explicit noun subject has been offered.

    So let's shine a light on that:
    Who, exactly considers unorthodox analysis as 'rocking the boat'?
    Why do those specific people/groups disagree with such unorthodox analysis? (Perhaps because unorthodox equates with uneducated, and thus we get people posting silly stuff about the universe being a living organism, etc.?)

    And follow up questions:

    What form does this 'rocking the boat' take?
    Persecution? Death?
    Or mere disapproval?
    What's wrong with these people disagreeing with someone who is analyzing the universe in unorthodox ways?
     
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    uh no, orthodox or unorthodox has nothing to do with education. it's a understood structure or construct. orthodox questioning is on the level of why does god allow evil and such questions which anyone can even ask a priest with no offense to their religion. unorthodox questioning is seen as a dismantling of that structure such as is god and satan the same? or are they in collusion? is the devil a scapegoat?

    btw, your mockery of the universe as a living organism as silly is rather arrogantly presumptuous as well as ignorant due to the fact current education does not have the knowledge to know if the universe is or part of a living organism. the idea is not that far-fetched. living organisms live within us. atoms are not considered living organisms yet that is what we are made of. what makes you think it's silly that this universe could be inside another organism or even be an organism? lol.

    but there is a difference in my point of view from theists or you who seems to be inclined to worship a larger organism if there was evidence. just because the universe may be alive doesn't mean it should be worshiped anymore than the microbes in your body worship you.

    is it symbiotic, beneficial, benign, doesn't matter? what is it? those are the questions that matter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    One can only think outside the box if one first knows where the box is.
    Unorthodox = thinking outside the box
    Educated (about the subject): learning about the box as it is now.

    There are an infinite number of things that could be true that we don't have enough to information to know.

    The universe could be a boil on the butt of a cosmic unicorn.
    It could be sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure.

    One of the rules of rational thinking is "don't just invent stuff unless there's reason to".

    So, if you think the universe is alive, you need reasons, i .e. evidence.

    Yes, it is.

    This is egregiously flawed thinking. I ... can't even begin to explain how bad.

    Being an atheist, I'm pretty comfortable that nothing warrants worship.


    'Life' has a particular meaning. We know it does because we invented the word, and gave it its definition.
    The universe does not qualify under the criteria for life.
     
  22. birch Valued Senior Member

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    no it's not and i don't even like the idea.
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, I reread what you wrote. It's not flawed; it's just entirely unsupported.

    Your ideas about the universe being part of a large living thing are no more or less valid than my suggestion that they are a boil on a unicorn's butt. (In fact, they are the same idea. Mine just makes it more obviously silly.)

    The number of things we could suppose the universe is - is infinite.

    The universe could be a pebble on a cosmic beach.
    The universe could be a boil on a cosmic butt.
    The universe could be a bauble on a cosmic Christmas tree.

    The are all equally plausible - all equally implausible, and all equally without any evidence whatsoever.

    So, when you say "not that far-fetched", imagine each pink flower is a description of what the universe "could" be:

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    and Horton has an affinity for a particular one.

    That's your idea among the other infinity of ideas that "could" be.
     

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