God is absent in nature

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by KennyJC, Jun 19, 2008.

  1. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    LightGigantic:

    This seems like something I'd enjoy, really. Quite a preferrable cirucmstance.

    By the way: Did you get my PM I sent you last week, re: Neo-Platonism?
     
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  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    its kind of like if the only thing one has to eat is cold pizza, one will think that is pretty good..... until one gets hot pizza

    yes
    thanks

    While I have heard it referenced before (by a fellow "practitioner" with a PhD in philosophy) I haven't really investigated it too deeply - I'm a bit snowed under at the moment

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  5. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

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    i know, i was only kidding.
     
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  7. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

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    all forms of beauty are just comparisons, maybe that's why we need the bad stuff.
     
  8. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not proposing a universe without any kind of suffering (although I wonder why that would have been so hard for a caring god), there would still be death, unfilfilled desires etc... but when it comes to cute little kiddies burning/being eaten alive, you have to stop and say "God: enough is enough, you utter prick".

    Seems a bit hypocrital to me. Theists are the ones constantly praying to this imaginary god to relieve them of their suffering which is in essence, his fault.

    And I am not talking about dentist trips here. I am talking about the excessive suffering cute little kiddies feel whilst being burned alive in an accidental fire. It seems a little bit excessive from a socalled caring and attentive god.

    I simply accept nature for it's brutalness because it was not a creation. If there was a god however, I would seriously question his motives. An intelligent agent who creates predator and prey resembles blood thirsty humans creating violent video games. Maybe 'god' is in mans image afterall?

    Even if your kids were burned alive tomorrow?

    Blah, blah. What crap!

    If the first cause is an immense and complicated vast intellegence, then that is completely illogical and very much non-occams razor.

    To summarize: Nature is blind, brutal and indifferent because there is no god.
     
  9. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, right... "God", "heaven" and "eternal life". So far 3 things that don't exist which you have brought up so far.

    I won't even ask why you think we are here to suffer before enternal life.

    "Karma", "Reincarnation", and "The Soul", that's 6 things so far that don't exist.

    Intelligence is often irrelevant to avoiding excessive pain.


    The flaw in your consistencey is that you point out this world is not meant for our enjoyment, but then you create a fantasy of god and heaven which is meant for your enjoyment.


    That just goes to my last point of this world being so horrible you choose to get the comfort of knowing there will be better to come after this ordeal is over. That is childlike - this world is all we will ever have before the ordeal is over.
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, but you get the impression that Nietzsche would have thought it better to live as a Viking raider or something just because life was interesting and passionate, even though most of the time you'll be wet and cold and it probably won't be long before some jackass shoots an arrow into you or chops off your arms. If you don't agree with him on that, a lot of his conclusions aren't likely to apply to you.
     
  11. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Lightgigantic:

    Perhaps, perhaps.


    That sounds fine. Take your time. But if you ever come upon it, check it out. I think you'd appreciate it.
     
  12. rjr6 Devout Theist Registered Senior Member

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    [quote/]
    The flaw in your consistencey is that you point out this world is not meant for our enjoyment, but then you create a fantasy of god and heaven which is meant for your enjoyment.




    That just goes to my last point of this world being so horrible you choose to get the comfort of knowing there will be better to come after this ordeal is over. That is childlike - this world is all we will ever have before the ordeal is over.[/QUOTE]

    This world is not meant to be endured. Keeping your chin up is not the message.
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    actually the closest thing to hell in vaisnava tradition is the notion of ceasing to exist. So your glorification of individual existence is not to be thoroughly condemned



    ok its on my 2do list

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  14. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Lightgigantic:

    So we're halfway in agreement? Coolsville!
     
  15. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    The ancient Hebrews got around this problem...a loving God as creator of a painful world...by constructing 'the fall of man' within their mythos.

    Yahweh first creates a world which is perfect, an Eden without suffering and want, but man (and women) screw it up with their disobedience.

    Thus, they are cast from the garden into a world where man must sow and reap by the sweat of his brow, and woman must bring forth children in sorrow.
     
  16. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    In the bible god actualy isnt that nice of a guy, remembe what he did to Job, slaughtered his whole family and burned his settlement to the ground just to prove a point to satan. He was actualy very judgemental, has control freak issues, is an ego-maniac who loves to be worshipped and above all will spank your ass if you step out of line, ontop of that if you dont obey his rules he will torture your soul not for weeks, months or even years but for ever and ever and ever in the pits of hell, which I imagine look like inner east london.

    He is a badass who will smack your face and he admits it too.

    peace.
     
  17. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Kenny
    it's kind of strange the way how you flip between "there's no evidence for that" when issues of logic arise and "that's not rational" for issues of evidence
    :shrug:


    just as well because I can't understand that question
    (“before eternal life” - ???)
    ditto to the intro ....
    it's integral however to avoiding wanton pain

    well actually no I don't
    Thats a point vaisnava philosophy is quite specific on

    SB 1.2.6 The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.

    CC mad 24.29 Causeless devotional service is unmotivated by sense enjoyment, perfection or liberation.

    etc etc

    given the nature of material existence, it's not clear why one would have to wait before things become horrible

    then I guess you have no alternative but to find shelter in wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster
    good luck

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  18. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    It's what I do when someone pulls something from their ass... 'karma', 'soul', etc.

    Ah yes, because only our body dies, and not our personalities.

    That's not good enough. People die under excessive pain and suffering they could have done nothing to prevent.

    So the eternal bliss or the 72 virgins or whatever has nothing to do with it? Come on, the only reason why religion is so popular worldwide is precisely because it is fanciful.

    What's wrong with that? I put it to you that I get all the kicks a religious nut gets, but without the tomfoolery of religious delusion.
     
  19. ggazoo Registered Senior Member

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    People, we believe, ought not to suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak - these things are all perfectly natural. On what basis, then, do you judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair, and unjust?
     
  20. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    Exactly. Thus on that basis I believe there is no god.

    Since I have no belief in an intelligent creator, then it would be silly to have a bone to pick with nature. It is what it is.

    But you believe in an intelligent creator, so I just wonder why you don't have a problem with god who centers life around 'big fish eats the little fish'. In spite of the cruelty of the way your god made this world, you expect him to turn over a leaf and reunite you with your daddy in an eternal bliss. Thats kind of like expecting Hitler to suspend the extermination of the Jews and give away free bunnies to make up for the trouble caused.
     
  21. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Ancient literature doesnt uphold this statement...that life was more enjoyable, or that cruelty held less shame.

    And Friedrich of all people should know better.

    This is a good example of why Nietzsche is regarded by some as a teacher of evil.
     
  22. ggazoo Registered Senior Member

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    Just because you can't think of a reason for pain and suffering doesn't mean there can't be one. Many atheists will falsely accuse Christians of having "blind faith"... but your assumption is blind faith of the highest order.

    With time and perspective most of us can see good reasons for at least some of the tragedy and pain that occurs in life. Why couldn't it be possible that, from God's vantage point, there are good reasons for all of them?

    Your objection to God is based on a sense of fair play and justice. You don't have a good basis for being outraged at injustice, which is the reason that you're objecting to God in the first place. If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, you are assuming the reality of some supernatural standard by which you make your judgment.
     
  23. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    There's no question about it. Particularly with your brand of organised religion which is based around child-like myths.

    It's not even in the same ball park. If you do not believe in god, then that is not faith. The reason being is that god effectively does not exist just like the tooth fairy.

    You can try to see good reasons in it, but flip the coin and it can seem senseless.

    So god created life to feel intense suffering so that we would then want to avoid harm, but then we can not escape harm as our bodies grow older or we find ourselves in an unfortunate accident. When you see a news report on a house fire where several young children were burned alive, I don't care what gods good reason for that suffering which a dictionary can not measure is, but there probably isn't one. The suffering of the individual appears irrelevant.

    The truth is that pain is a crude but effective way to ensure we pass on our genes. Godless, blind, uncaring.

    My judgment is that a creator who creates an environment full of sentient beings who are destined to be eaten alive in a painful, desperate and depressing end, is not a caring creator.
     

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