God in the Forest

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Light Travelling, Aug 6, 2005.

  1. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

    especially if they are lunatic, however my patients already know that.
    wow go to the top of the class, and without logical mind we would all be close to lunacy.
    hence why I said govened (To keep under control; restrain from doing irrational things, making wrong choices) without the influence of logic, the subjective mind take over and people start to see hear and do all kinds of strange things, they no longer can tell reality from fantasy
    yes it can be used for that it can be used for everything in your life, apart from your imagination.
    actually it's about half to two thirds of the world population, that believe in a god or gods of some kind, and I happen to agree with you, it is'nt logical.
    but that does'nt make it normal.
    a lot of people have a mild form of dementia, we cant put them all in asylums.
    and it is, let's off steam, and especially if you have Tourette's Syndrome.
    yes I agree theres extremes both ways.
    no they dont act from logic, logic just keeps everything tidy, as I've already said if it was'nt there, then people would go to the extreme all the time.
    no their not all completely logical but it has influence in everything they do.
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  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    "a lot of people have a mild form of dementia, we cant put them all in asylums"

    How we know we're not one of them eh?

    Hehe. It IS an interesting question.

    Have you ever dealt with a schizophrenic?

    It's intense, and they are NOT crazy. Just ask them.
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  5. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

    exactly who will admit to being crazy.
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    the who are few in my experience.
  8. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    I'm crazy (right here). The immense amount of social and political risk I take on a daily basis is bewhildering.
  9. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member


    You seem to define lunacy as not using logic to make decisions in life. If thats how you want to define madness thats fine, your perfectly entitled to.

    I do not define it as such, many others do not define it as such including many phsycologists.

    I see non logical desicions as part of the human make up and not cause for labelling a person mad.
  10. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

    could you post up some names if possible, of these aledged psychologists, be cause i dont thing so.
    I never said people were'nt allowed to make illogical decisions, and I have said "a lot of people have a mild form of dementia, we cant put them all in asylums." if we did the nearly four fifths of the planet would be locked up.
    also if we did not have mild lunacy in society, we would not have the art, literature, and music, we have, hell even love is a beautiful madness.
  11. mis-t-highs I'm filling up Registered Senior Member

    Fahrenheit and Light Travelling, you two seem to disagree on the point of how logic and discrimination effect, us as humans.
    well logic effects your entire Psyche, even discrimination, without logic, live would be chaotic it does not control you, but without it you would be doing the most stupid of thing, infact it would be crazyness. but then again without any logic, helping you decern fantasy from reality, you would not know you were doing crazys things anyway.
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Of course it didn't make sense

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    . I mis-read "denial is faith" as "denial of
    faith" and then commented accordingly. It's the ol' brain filter at work. I
    understand what you are saying though, any attempt at escape in the taoist
    trap turns into a form of faith or rejection.

    I've made the same observation. So now we have a single adult scenario
    where acceptance is not possible and a common baby scenario where
    acceptance is not possible. There are many other scenarios like this as well.
    Can a gay man accept (not pretend) he's attracted to women? Can a
    person burning to death accept the experience as pleasurable?

    Humans are simply built with a base foundation of emotion and sensory
    tolerances. It's not possible to accept that you don't feel happiness or
    hungry for example. It is a piece of conceptual geometry that is static in
    conetent and can expand as different emotional states and sensory
    tolerances are experienced. For example, it's not possible to accept that
    people don't die.

    The rest of the conceptual geometry is adaptable (keys may not fit in
    keyholes today but may do so tomorrow) and this is where I think we're
    getting hung up (the ol' Taoist -COM- trap).

    This is where the fun part comes in (.NET). My experience is that the non-
    adaptable conceptual geometry will reach various stages of relationships that
    enable it to grow. Eventually that growth crossed a threshold where it's
    simply not possible to accept that I am not a part of reality; hence, my
    original assertion of being a part of reality is not a statement of faith.
  13. Hostile Registered Senior Member

    Why do you find it so nesessary to discount god when you cannot disprove his existace. You cannot prove it is in their imaginations when you cant prove that God doesnt exist. Also, why would you want to spend your time trying to prove somthing that cant be proved or disproved?
  14. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Exactly. We seem to think similarly, so there is a reasonable chance we'll actually find some agreement here.

    Probably not no. There are plenty of scenarios that result in mutually exclusive conditions. If I'm black, I can't accept that I'm white? Blah blah, I agree. This is irrelevant to the argument IMO, as you've subverted the trap via faith prior to the discussion.

    What's interesting to note (as I reflected on it after your previous post), is that a baby is not separate from the tao until it begins to form concepts. It begins to do so early in its life. We might say that until there is a "sense of self" there is no separation from the tao (hence the taoist/buddist denial of self). I've explored that in my mind and it seems like I've come to understand it but I'd need to explore it more to get the relationships expounded and clarified. If you're interested, let's spelunk.

    Afterthought: "what one can believe" in terms of their foundation, is a matter of motivation and will. Whether or not the structure of their mind can rebound from changing or removing parts of the foundation, or any related stuff... is another matter, but IMO, there is little you can firmly state "No one could believe this" because that's simply not true. It seems to me that you're "crunchycatomorphizing" people to your own perception (which of course we all do, because crunchycats are good no?)

    If they survive, it's possible yes. Dayz sum sick bitches out thair man.

    I agree to some extent with the first sentence, but would argue technicalities on the second, as I'm sure that's simply not true. I'd point to monks and such who've I believe, proven you're incorrect. Most people can't, but SOME can I think... but you're doing this after having made a miniscule little leap of faith... right? Do you see? Once we make the leap we can build a model. Until then, not so much. This is basically philosophy of mathematics/logic - in the sense that we are lost without some axioms. Logic is useless without inputs, boundary conditions. No matter how valid they seem, observational distance and our lacking the "encompassing all of time" thing, limits us to assumption regarding the validity of those boundary conditions...

    We can only assert the authority of our perception... know what I mean?

    LOL. You had me until that last sentence. Did you forget about the 2/3 of the planet who exactly accepts that people don't really die? Regardless.... all you say is steeped in your perspective (which I generally concur with). If we assert our authority of perception as "objective", do we not bear false authority at that point? We say "this is how it is... OBJECTIVELY"... isn't that ultimately "might is right" in craniality form? Isn't that being an "intellectual bully"? Does that allow for error?

    Bah, I'm just saying.. if we do not allow for the fact that our basis is faith... even if that is a miniscule aspect of our argument... then we have no consistency in our model, and no argument stronger than that of a schizophrenic on a paranoia bender.

    Having chunked this up I may have missed your intended meaning. I see now you're exploring my suggested spelunking hole before. Hmm. I'll have to revisit upon letting it gel for a bit.

    I understand your intention, but your assertion doesn't seem like a statement of faith, but it is. Would you agree? IMO, it's an important realization to level the playing feild and stay the impending solidification of presumption as you describe above. IMO, the threshold you describe as being crossed is a flaw... basically bad housekeeping. You missed some junk that was laying around and it layed there so long it became part of the house.

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    I think in a mind like yours, or of sufficient maleability however, removing parts of the house is a matter of will and motivation. You can see things as you choose when it's been clearly demonstrated that you should.

    I think I've clearly demonstrated it.

    Of course then, I'm a cocky bastard and have no real basis external to that cockiness to assure me that I'm correct.

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  15. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Hostile: Why do you find it so nesessary to discount god when you cannot disprove his existace. You cannot prove it is in their imaginations when you cant prove that God doesnt exist. Also, why would you want to spend your time trying to prove somthing that cant be proved or disproved?
    M*W: If God existed, we would be able to readily prove it. It wouldn't be such an enigma. It's not really a matter of proving or disproving God's existence, it's a matter of wasting one's time believing in fairy tales, and then trying to push them down everyone else's throats (as done on this forum). Belief in such fantasies should be kept private and to oneself, but this is something believers just cannot do. They scorch the Earth with their lies and vanities proclaiming the omniscience of their God, yet all we see is their stupidity.
  16. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    I think this portion is very relevant. In a situation where acceptance is simply
    not possible, we're left with a whole new ball of wax.

    I see it a little differently. I see that baby with the static geometry and little
    or no adaptable geometry. If I were to compare the static geometry to the
    Teo, I would see it as someplace else rather than the Tao itself.

    I am actually crunchycatmorphizing my static geometry into something
    communicatable which gets received by the adaptive geometry. The
    existence of the non-acceptable is present. Nobody can accept they don't

    Like that german bastard whom agreed to be eaten?

    There is a difference between acceptance and control (the latter of which is
    what I those funky monkey's are doing).

    I think it may be interpreted as faith simply because of my act of
    communicating it. In the absence of the communication I'm left with the
    static gemoetry. I don't think our perception is authority... it would actually
    be the stuff which perception it is made out of (referring to reality there).

    Heh, I think we're confusing end of life (lack of energy to sustain biological
    processes, burial, decomposition...) with afterlife

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    . I am not trying to
    promote iBullying. I am simply saying that there is a static geometry for which
    acceptance is not a factor. I don't think this removes consistency... I do
    think it actually drives it.

    mmmmm... geeeeeelllll

    Didn't Einstein say cockiness is relative? I do see the assertion of static
    geometry resulting in a path for which acceptance doesn't tread. Being a
    prismatic cocky spastard myself, my original statement doesn't seem to
    qualify in the faith realm (the acceptance definition and not the trust one...
    even though I know you don't distinguish between 'em).
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2005
  17. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member


    Please find below some extracts from Chaotic Logic Language, Thought and Reality From the Perspective of Complex Systems Science
    Ben Goertzel PHD

    Today, as John MacNamara has put it, "logicians and psychologists generally behave like the men and women in an orthodox synagogue. Each group knows about the other, but it is proper form that each should ignore the other" (1986, p.1). But such was not always the case. Until somewhere toward the end of nineteenth century, the two fields of logic and psychology were closely tied together. What changed things was, on the one hand, the emergence of experimental psychology; and, on the other hand, the rediscovery and development of elementary symbolic logic by Boole, deMorgan and others.
    The early experimental psychologists purposely avoided explaining intelligence in terms of logic. Mental phenomena were analyzed in terms of images, associations, sensations, and so forth. And on the other hand -- notwithstanding the psychological pretensions of Leibniz's early logical investigations and Boole's Laws of Thought -- the early logicians moved further and further each decade toward considering logical operationsas distinct from psychological operations. It was increasingly realized on both sides that the formulas of propositional logic have little connection with emotional, intuitive, ordinary everyday thought.

    Automatic theorem proving -- the science of programming computers to prove mathematical theorems -- was once thought of as a stronghold of pure deductive logic. It seemed so simple: just apply the rules of mathematical logic to the axioms, and you generate theorems. But now many researchers in automated theorem proving have realized that this is only a very small part of what mathematicians do when they prove theorems. Even in this ethereal realm of reasoning, tailor-made for logical deduction, nondeductive, alogical processes are of equal importance.

    For example, after many years of productive research on automated theorem proving, Alan Bundy (1991) has come to the conclusion that

    Logic is not enough to understand reasoning. It provides only a low-level, step by step understanding, whereas a high-level, strategic understanding is also required. (p. 178)


    And this from

    The raven paradox: logic and psychology. by David Rose , Cambridge
    Department of History and Philosophy of Science

    III. Conclusion.

    My contention has been that the raven paradox arises because psychological factors intervene when we try to exemplify abstract logic in real-world terms. It is impossible to ignore the particular scenario when we apply the logic to everyday situations. The raven paradox arises because logic and psychology give us different answers as to the relevance of white shoes. Logic is correct in asserting that white shoes are relevant; probabilistic calculations show that the information gained from white shoes is minuscule. But whether we know this is a matter of psychology. Logical arguments have to be filtered through the constraints of our ability to think.16 Our intuitive faculties first construct a mental model in which it is clear that white shoes are irrelevant to the question of black ravens; only slow effortful analytic reasoning enables us to see the logical explanation for the relevance of white shoes.

    you can read more of this at ,

    I dont think I really need to add much to that do I..
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2005
  18. Hostile Registered Senior Member

    How one spends his time is up to them. And about keeping it private. This is still a free country and yes, the same country that allows you to call peoples beliefs stupid. You decide what goes down your throat.
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Man I've been covering similar topics in numerous threads and got lost. Thought this conversation was in another thread until I just stumbled back across it.

    Perhaps you can explain how exactly.

    Well it's geometry begins adapting quickly, but I generally agree. The reason I say it isn't separate from the tao however, is that as far as it is concerned, it is not. There is no "self" to that "static geometry". With no ego, there is no separation. It's basically the world of most animals. As the geometry adapts to stimulous and self is realized, ego is formed and thus - faith in self in the sense of "I am" and "what I know IS".

    Hehe. Some people use colostamy bags. Some people would deny that they poo.

    LOL, yeah like that guy.

    So you can't control what you accept?

    It is faith because it requires your ego to give it authority.

    Why static? If you don't communicate you can still percieve and adapt.

    Well the tao is the ultimate authority surely, but the authority of our impressoin of it is limited to our perception.

    We might even call it "assumption". Your static conceptual geometry is still part of your mind, however static it remains. Thus it's subject to the taoist trap.

    The stronger the faith, the less it seems as so, it's just TRUTH.
  20. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Me too.

    There is no longer a choice. For acceptance to be possible, rejection must
    also be possible. If acceptance is not possible then neither is rejection;
    hence, choice is no longer part of the picture.

    The identity of 'self' can be removed artifically by using electromagnetism to
    retard electrical activity in the portion of the brain that 'self' derives from. It
    usually ends up in a euphoric experience for an end-user. In this scenario,
    emotions and senses still remain in tact. Therefore removing the self is
    possible while simultaneously maintining a static geometry (or even adaptable

    Colostomy, it's not my bag (Slotty has that catch phrase). Of course the
    colostomy folks are easily resolved by a slight modification to the original
    statment. I think you got the message though. Anyone pooper who publicly
    denies it still cannot accept that they don't poo (they can pretend though).

    That's adaptive geometry. I think we're talking about bio training here.

    Reality is a persistent enforcer and I cannot choose not to grant it authority.
    I can choose to avoid situations where it would enforce upon me and then
    accept those situations work differently.

    I've seen the Tao used in multiple contexts in our discussion. Maybe for
    clarification's sake, how are we defining it?

    If you've ever felt happy, sad, frustrated, hot, cold, it's static and not subject
    to the trap.

    Acceptance still isn't a factor in my original statement and as it's being used
    synonymously with 'faith'; hence, it ain't there.

    On the lighter side of things, that new Harry Potter book is pretty good so far
    (I'm about 1/2 way through). No idea why I wanted to share that.

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