God, Guts & Guns Made U.S. Free

Discussion in 'History' started by Bowser, Sep 16, 2000.

  1. Undecided Banned Banned

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    The fact that the Separatists weren't alone on the Mayflower is not exactly some secret history that everybody but Americans apparently know about (God, the misplaced arrogance on this board slays me sometimes), and can be found in most any college text.

    Yes see the problem there Spyke? Don’t you see how the vast majority of Americans will never know that fact because it is lodged deep in a college text? How many Americans take American history in College, how many Americans actually go to college? I would say not enough, and as a result this would be quite a revelation, some high schools in the US don’t even teach history anymore so yes it would turn the American idea of history on its face. Look there are things you keep on misunderstanding, the American people don’t know what you know about America, they know VERY little, they probably still think that the Boston tea party was more then a bunch of angry tea smugglers, no they were freedom fighters…so yes Spyke dumbing down American history is what I pointing to here, and romanticizing it for the masses helps create the nonsense of this “free America” ever so heroic.

    And I'm really not sure how you state that the assertion that had the ship been totally Pilgrims and thus would have not been capitalistic helps your argument. Quite the opposite. It helps mine. It supports what I've been saying. Not only did 2/3 of the Plymouth settlement not share the Puritans' beliefs, they came to America in search of the opportunity to make a profit.

    The puritans did not come to America for profit, and most Americans would say this:

    “The Mayflower brought over the persecuted from Europe to America.”

    That is what I would imagine what most Americans would say…disagree? Note no mention of those others onboard, you know why because it’s not in the interests of the gov’t to talk about those people.

    Too funny. So we have the Jamestown community that was here to make a profit, and established America's first representative government, and 2/3 of the Plymouth settlement was here to make a profit, and then we have a small group of 40 Separatists that tried, and failed, to establish a communal society. My point is made. Thanks.

    Ah no its not, because the American people would state that coming here was not for profit, but for freedom. This is the reality in their minds, and they associate that with the Mayflower, and the pilgrims who were communist, something Thanksgiving leaves out. If your “point is made” don’t take it up with me, take it up with the bewildered American public.

    Would it somehow make a difference if the Puritans had settled south of Virginia?

    Only if that would be Spanish held territory.

    Their communal society didn't survive. Failed motives or intentions of settlement are not legacies that get passed along.

    Again that is irrelevant to the founding principles of a nation, do you understand what founding principles mean? This flies over your head child not mine.

    Then I can just as easily say that Plymouth is inconsequential.

    I really don’t see how.

    Maryland was chartered only 12 years after the Separatists landed at Plymouth, which is a slightly shorter amount of time than the 13 years between Jamestown and Plymouth.

    Yah…wow more irrelevant facts thanks…anyways 13 years is a long time don’t you think especially considering the life span of these people.

    Again. Are you serious? You're actually trying to tell me that Jamestown is romanticized history?

    No dyslexia boy I am saying the exact opposite. Re-read what I wrote.

    The original Jamestown may not exist as anything more than an archaelogical site, but what Jamestown represents to the US, representative government and the first working state assembly, is significantly more important to what is America than Thanksgiving, and certainly carries more weight than some failed communal experiment.

    Where’s the celebrations? Where are the Yellow Fever mascots? Where are the Jamestown bark eating contests? Jamestown to the VAST majority of America means little to noting compared to Plymouth.

    What we are talking about here is what America is today, and where that legacy comes from. Right?

    No…perception not reality that is what really matters…comprende?

    The point you obviously missed is that the Separatists were soon absorbed by the larger Puritan community, who were not radical Separatists, and who actually held the charter to Massachusetts. And they definitely did not practice communalism.

    That’s grand…doesn’t change the historical facts friend.

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    Communism is not a founding principle of America. Period.

    Let me put like this…was refuge a founding principle of America…if so as is communism.

    And if you think the Jamestown settlers weren't tolerant, you should read up more on the Puritans, who had a nasty habit of hanging Quakers.

    Sounds like typical American history…

    Smells like a cop-out to me.

    That sounds like a brain tumor to me…

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2004
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  3. Gravity Deus Ex Machina Registered Senior Member

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    Here is a great quote from "The Third Reich Syndrome:
    George Will and the Collapse of Historical Knowledge" by DR. WERTHER

    The full piece is at: http://www.counterpunch.org/werther01022003.html
     
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  5. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    I honestly don't see how you keep making the assertion that such a revelation somehow 'turns American history on its face'? It is in the history books, so it's not some startling new evidence that's been discovered buried away in some dark cellar. And when you say it is 'hidden away' in some college text you act like you're talking about some obscure ancient Latin text locked away in some mountaintop monastery. If you attend college in most states American history is part of the General Studies requirement, 6 hrs minimum. As far as the percentage of Americans that go to college it is 46% for whites, and slgihtly lower for blacks and Hispanics, I believe. But assuming you are correct, that the majority of Americans don't know that the Separatists were a minority on the Mayflower, why is that relevant to your argument that America was founded on communist principles?

    I don't know what they would say. I'm not so presumptuous as you as to put words in almost 300 million people's mouths. I do agree that the Puritans didn't come to America for profit, but at the same time, neither did they come over for the express purpose of being communists.

    Explain this conspiracy to me, please. Why is it not in the government's interest to 'talk about those people'?

    And here's the really funny part. Not only would the American people not talk about some on board the Mayflower coming here for profit, because as you claim, they don't know about it, and at the same time, they would also not talk about the Separatists on board the mayflower attempting to set up a community based on communism, because again, you claim they don't know about it. So it's irrelevant as well. It means the only legacy the Separatists brought to contemporary America is Thanksgiving.

    Oh, I understand quite well what founding principles mean. What I'm beginning to doubt is that you do. But you can always prove me wrong. Exactly how does a social experiment that quickly fails, that wasn't even the reason the Separatists came to America in the first place, who weren't even the first community of settlers in America, somehow become a founding principle of the nation?

    It's quite simple. You said Maryland was inconsequential because it was settled later. The order was, Jamestown in 1607, Plymouth in 1620, and the the first settlers in Maryland in 1632. So if you're going to claim maryland was too late to matter, being 12 years after Plymouth, then Plymouth, being 13 years after Jamestown, would seem to be just as inconsequential.

    I guess you're right. 13 years is a long time considering the life span of people back then, so you must agree then that Plymouth, settled 13 years after Jamestown, is irrelevant. Yes?

    Please stop. You're giving me a headache with some of this stuff. But since were talking about celebrations, where are the celebrations to communism? Seriously, I can't believe you're wasting time with this. You're now suggesting that founding principles are only passed down through celebrations?

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    I would suggest that what is probably Jametown's most important legacy, representative government, means a heck of a lot more to the American people than Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving really wasn't even celebrated by all of the states until during FDR's presidency.

    So do you really think Americans perceive that the Separatists might have been communists, especially for such a brief time? No, of course not. So it never became a principle, wouldn't you have to agree?

    You're right. It doesn't change the facts. What the facts are is that the Separatists left us with two legacies - Thanksgiving and the Mayflower Compact, and it is only the latter that could be considered a true founding principle. It is that larger group of Puritans that leaves a much more lasting legacy in America. It is this group of Puritans that established the township governments that became the basis for local municipal governments elsewhere. Unlike the radical Separatists, it is the larger Puritan group that wanted to establish the 'city on the hill', a beacon for the rest of the world, that would become a legacy for future presidents' speeches. This is the Puritan group that left America more lasting legacies, not the smaller group of radicals.

    Umm, no, I wouldn't say refuge was. America was seen as a safe haven, yes, but refuge is not what I would consider a founding principle. It was simply something many immigrants were seeking. Some things I would consider such principles would be civic virtue, the common good (and I don't mean communism, but rather helping your neighbors), the idea along with rights, there are also duties and responsibilities of each citizen, opposition to corruption, active participation and involvement of the people in matters of common concern, and so on.

    Reads like the history of most nations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2004
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  7. top mosker Ariloulaleelay Registered Senior Member

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    Hate to but in on this but...

    You really need to take "god" out for that to make sense.

    Yea, there were guns, and the men definately had some guts to pull it off.

    But did "god" intervene? I think not. He watched happily from up in his magical place in the sky with all his little angels next to him. Men (and women) made america, not some figment diety of our imagination.
     
  8. Undecided Banned Banned

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    I honestly don't see how you keep making the assertion that such a revelation somehow 'turns American history on its face'?

    You are a real hard head (or is that the tumour?) Anyways, it does throw popular American history on its face, considering most American’s do not have a idea about their history.

    And when you say it is 'hidden away' in some college text you act like you're talking about some obscure ancient Latin text locked away in some mountaintop monastery.

    To many Americans that is a sad reality, consider tuition costs, and the traditional hatred of history as another “useless subject” in America’s wealth inspired students.

    If you attend college in most states American history is part of the General Studies requirement, 6 hrs minimum.

    It should be in high schools…that is a sad, sad, sad state for a country who doesn’t even teach basic history to its high school students (although many do, haphazardly). Using your logic Spyke, physics should be easy as a whistle for most Americans as well, hey its taught in College too. Give me a break.

    As far as the percentage of Americans that go to college it is 46% for whites, and slgihtly lower for blacks and Hispanics, I believe.

    OK how many take this mystical history course…not much I would suppose. And to only have 6hrs worth of history under your belt…I doubt you get anything more then “superficial knowledge” which Mill talked about so well.

    But assuming you are correct, that the majority of Americans don't know that the Separatists were a minority on the Mayflower, why is that relevant to your argument that America was founded on communist principles?

    Because this is the part which you don’t seem to understand…perception of history determines it’s, not the reality. Do you think the great flood happened? No, but to millions it did as a historical fact. What I am trying to show you is that the government uses that same ignorance to tell America how great it is, etc. With the population not even questioning it…DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? The point of this conversation is less about me vs. you, it’s history vs. perception.

    I don't know what they would say. I'm not so presumptuous as you as to put words in almost 300 million people's mouths.

    Ok, 150 million or so? Don’t cop out on me now, do you think MOST Americans would agree with that sentence or not. If so then stop slapping manure on this pig.

    do agree that the Puritans didn't come to America for profit, but at the same time, neither did they come over for the express purpose of being communists.

    Of course they did if it was ingrained in their religion.

    Why is it not in the government's interest to 'talk about those people'?

    It’s in the governments interest not to teach the American people their true history…please don’t get defensive over the damned obvious. If it’s a conspiracy, it’s a pretty sloppily kept one.

    So it's irrelevant as well. It means the only legacy the Separatists brought to contemporary America is Thanksgiving.

    Well not really, if the American public agrees that the pilgrims are the people who set American principles, that doesn’t mean they reject the communist fact, they just are ignorant about it. Thus the American people are through implaction of ignorance admitting the country was founded on communism.

    Oh, I understand quite well what founding principles mean. What I'm beginning to doubt is that you do.

    Don’t be patronizing…that’s a sign of overcompensation for something else…

    Exactly how does a social experiment that quickly fails, that wasn't even the reason the Separatists came to America in the first place, who weren't even the first community of settlers in America, somehow become a founding principle of the nation?

    Yes…one of the founding principles not the sole principle of course. If one of the principles of America is refuge as was communism no matter how short lived that was. You are looking the consequences which are not principles but reactionary to the environment around them.

    The order was, Jamestown in 1607, Plymouth in 1620, and the the first settlers in Maryland in 1632. So if you're going to claim maryland was too late to matter, being 12 years after Plymouth, then Plymouth, being 13 years after Jamestown, would seem to be just as inconsequential.

    You mean 1610? Anyways, again Jamestown is largely irrelevant historically to America the nation founded on principles, the Jamestown colony had little in the way of principles other then expanding the fledging British empire…disagree? Was Plymouth different yes it was…so which was really more inconsequential? Secondly Maryland was the same bull shit as Jamestown…so yes Plymouth was much more important.

    I guess you're right. 13 years is a long time considering the life span of people back then, so you must agree then that Plymouth, settled 13 years after Jamestown, is irrelevant. Yes?

    Not to history…only to a timeline.

    Please stop. You're giving me a headache with some of this stuff.

    http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=brain tumour &meta=

    See a doctor already!

    But since were talking about celebrations, where are the celebrations to communism?

    In the USA? Sure during the depression there were communists out on the streets starting to draw crowds.

    You're now suggesting that founding principles are only passed down through celebrations?

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    No, show me where I asserted as much? All I said is that in nationalism celebrations are as important as symbols and flags (if you think me talking about celebrations is ridiculous then you must agree as is nationalism). Through celebrations nations commemorate and show their support for their history.

    I would suggest that what is probably Jametown's most important legacy, representative government, means a heck of a lot more to the American people than Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving really wasn't even celebrated by all of the states until during FDR's presidency.

    Well if you are saying “celebration” are superfluous to the conversation why even bother defending this position…seems childish to say the least. Personally I think there would have been representative gov’t regardless of Jamestown, and since most Americans and even the government seem to agree your stance is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Now June 10th should be Jamestown day…

    So do you really think Americans perceive that the Separatists might have been communists, especially for such a brief time? No, of course not. So it never became a principle, wouldn't you have to agree?

    It’s a tricky one to say the least, if the American population agree that the pilgrims are the founding members of their society, and really nothing else then everything goes.

    Mayflower Compact, and it is only the latter that could be considered a true founding principle.

    I never said differently, all I am saying if your going to play this game acknowledge communism as one of those principles.

    Umm, no, I wouldn't say refuge was. America was seen as a safe haven, yes, but refuge is not what I would consider a founding principle.

    Again most American’s and the Statue of Liberty would GRAVELY disagree with that, right now that sentence showed the amount of hubris you are wiling to enact to notlose face. Also I don’t get it Spyke why all this defensiveness against communism? Juched are we?

    Reads like the history of most nations.

    True…
     
  9. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    Yet again no one has answered my question.

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  10. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    We are demonstrating that we are free from any obligation to answer your question.

    :m: Peace.
     
  11. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    LMAO thats a good one

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  12. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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  13. Don Hakman Registered Senior Member

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    Guns played a large part in US history but the good old fashioned knife is grossly overlooked.

    For example in The mid to late 1800's bounties were paided for every decapitated head of Indians and even Hispanics. Bringing a bag of heads into town bought yourself drinks a bed and a whore for the night.

    Where is that good old american justice today.
     
  14. oscarmitre Registered Senior Member

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    Mercantilism preceded capitalism. Individual profiteering is not capitalism, it's exploitation of a situation of shortage of particular goods. Capitalism is very different from both . Capitalism didn't begin until Adam Smith pointed it out in the Wealth of Nations which was published in 1776 (Americans might not have read it back then as they were a bit busy with a War of Independence). Capitalism has done the world huge favours and there is no doubt that we would not have the advantages we do now without it.
     

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