God does not follow the first principle of morality. Why not?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Greatest I am, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    Not simply so, since within each of these categories, there are characteristic differences according to different cultures.

    For example, some things that may be considered immoral in the modern US army, were not considered immoral in the US army from 50 years ago.
    Or, in some cultures, it is considered normative for parents to marry off their daughters when they are still children, around the age of 10 or so, and have them have sex with adult men. In some other cultures, this practice is considered immoral.

    So it is impossible to speak of a "morality relevant for soldiers, parents etc." as if there would exist only one standard across the world and time for all soldiers, or all parents etc.


    Sure, I never disagreed with that.
    The question is only what in particular this morality is, and inasmuch it involves humans.


    All major theistic religions are known for favoring men and a permissive attitude toward violence against women.




    I will not join you in this quest of trying to find palatable explanations for the words and deeds of your spiritual leaders.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    So you believe it is entirely justified and moral for theists to lie to, steal from and kill non-theists?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    Wonderful analogy: it's a dog-eat-dog world.

    To think of one's inner life as a matter of two hungry, fighting dogs, fighting until one of them drops dead ...


    Do you feel encouraged by this analogy, inspired? Does it make you feel good?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    call them bunnies if it makes you feel better
    :shrug:
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Do you feel bad about having beaten your wife?
     
  9. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    http://www.princeton.edu/~harman/Papers/Moral_Relativism.pdf

     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    The metaphors we use to explain and understand phenomena importantly direct our thinking, feeling and acting about said phenomena.


    I didn't beat my wife.
    And I don't feel good about using physical force against anyone.
     
  11. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    so you don't feel good about beating your wife ... good to hear it.
     
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    What are you talking about?

    All major theistic religions favor men, at the expense of women. Apparently, men feel good about that. And women are expected to just accept it.
     
  13. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    He's referring the logical fallacy of a "Complex Question."
    "A complex question is a question that implicitly assumes something to be true by its construction, such as 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' A question like this is fallacious only if the thing presumed true (in this case, that you beat your wife) has not been established. "

    And doing so by Argumentum ad nauseam. He's in rare form, as usual...
     
  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    I think more highly of him than to think this is all he's doing. He should know that by now.
     
  15. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    Not quite. We by all those with a nature. From man to canine, find yours.
     
  16. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    You responded- but you didn't answer the question, address the concern or provide any kind of validation.
     
  17. MLJHILTON Registered Member

    Messages:
    10
    Point 1. You seem to be suggesting that all behaviour that deserves punishment is attributable to parental failure. Did you know that if you were a Russian journalist and you wrote anything critical of Vladimir Putin or his regime, suddenly your life expectancy would be greatly truncated? Is this because poor little Vlady was let down by his parents, or because Mr. Putin is an evil man? Is every murderer, rapist, extortioner, child molester, tax dodger, etc. who appears before a judge the product of inadequate parenting?

    Point 2. I assume you have in mind "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" (Romans 9:10-13). Now, it's clear from the context of the passage that Paul is quoting (Malachi 1:2-4) that he is referring to the nation rather than the man. However, let's assume that he is referring to Esau the man. Why did God love Jacob, who was a mean, self-advancing trickster and hate Esau, who just got on with life as best he could? The answer is that God could work with Jacob and make him into the man that He wanted him to be, whereas Esau was only interested in his belly. So, how did God demonstrate His hatred of Esau? Well, we know that Esau enjoyed rugged health throughout his life, that he lived to a good old age, that he had 12 sons, each of whom became a tribal chief in his own right, and that he became the patriarch of the nation called after him (Edom, which was Esau's nick-name). This sounds like the description of a man living under divine blessing. You might even be forgiven for concluding that God really loved him after all. Maybe he really loves you, too!
     
  18. MLJHILTON Registered Member

    Messages:
    10
    "Ticket to heaven" is inaccurate; but my salvation, and yours, was bought with innocent blood. It could not be bought with guilty blood.
     
  19. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Ah... So even God has his price...
     
  20. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Point 1.
    Have a look at how we learn things and are locked into mimicry even more than some creatures we place below us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related

    As you can surmise, rearing is how we learn. The parents have the responsibility to teach children in their early years and then society and perrs take over. People, good or evil are thus created by all human interactions as well as our own selfish genes and instincts. So yes, it is to parents and all of us tat deserve the kudos or blame. Let us allow for those who are born insane or otherwise not normal It could be said that they are to blame for what they are along with nature. I think they would be the only exceptions. Judges tend to revue apersons upbringing and social circumstances when they make a judgement. A wife beater for instance usually comes from a family where wife beating was the norm. That link has been shown clearly enough for a judge to consider it in sentencing.

    Point 2.
    Your dogma says that we cannot fathom God so I have no idea as to why he would hate someone even in the womb.
    Your God though does seem to reward evil. For instance; he gave Satan, who is supposed to be sentenced to hell, the gift of dominion on earth and the ability to deceive us all.

    Not to hijack this O P but I happen to be working on something that speaks to this.
    Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

    Scriptures indicate that God knows that babies in the womb have not done anything good or evil. They also indicate that God hates some babies even while in the womb and innocent. It is also said that God creates us and our characters. Our characters, as we evolve, cannot help but do evil. God then is responsible for the evil that we will do as he has created our natures. Natures that we cannot help but follow.

    We can blame our free will and the choices we make for the evil that we do but this does not explain why our God created natures decide to do evil. Theistic evolutionists try to explain this paradox but the average literalist or fundamental Christian does not follow their reasoning.

    We have no choice and no free will to deviate from our God given sin nature and God would know this as it is was all planned. Jesus was to die even before man was created. That is why Adam’s sin is called a necessary sin.

    If we have no choice in following our sin natures, and cannot deviate from our part in God’s plan, then what is God’s reason for punishing us for being exactly what he created and programmed us to do?

    That is why Adam’s sin is called a necessary sin. He could not help but sin and neither can any of us. You cannot help but do evil and thus sin.

    This is all rather abstract so if you like I will imagine a viable scenario for us to work with. We all know that many are starving to death in various countries. Imagine one of these starving children walking past a farmer’s apple tree. The child knows that if he steals the apples that the farmer’s family will starve to death. He or she has a choice of either stealing apples to prevent their death or not. The survival instinct being our first instinct, I think apples will be eaten.

    That child’s God given nature will choose life, as all natures do by default, and eat an apple. Does that child deserve hell when it’s God given nature drove it to sin?

    We cannot do anything but follow our basic God given natures. Do we deserve hell for doing so?

    Is God’s punishment unjust?

    If sin was required for Jesus to manifest, Adam had to sin. Would his punishment and death have also been unjust?

    Did God, knowing Adam would be a sinner and cause God’s/Jesus’ death, hate Adam as well when he was creating him?

    Regards
    DL

    This clip explains theistic evolution and how you cannot help but do evil and sin.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
     
  21. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Your "could not" indicates that God had limited choices. Not so for an all-powerful God nor is this biblical.
    How can you know what an unfathomable God can or cannot do?
    Scriptures also indicate that some walked with God before Jesus even died so that precedent is refuting your claim as well.
    They also indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice.

    As above, so below. We are to emulate God's laws and ways.

    Do you think it a good justice policy to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?
    If so, please listen to this young lady. She speaks faster than I can write.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

    Further on blood not being required and showing God's preference of repentance.
    I could quote all these as well but again, faster to listen than for me to write it all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Just a quick add on.

    Psalm 49:7
    None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Further, can you tell me what Jesus meant on the cross when he said ---- why have you forsaken me.
    That hardly sounds like Jesus thanking God or himself for accepting his sacrifice. It sounds more like God rejecting it as immoral and saying -----

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    The above speak to Jesus as a man.

    If Jesus is God, then we all know that God cannot die and therefore there can be no sacrifice.

    Regards
    DL
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968

    The body dies, and if we identify the body as the self (soul), then it is the soul that dies. That is why it says ''the soul that sinneth, it shall die''

    The point of Jesus' mission was to prove that the soul, once situated in God consciousness, cannot die.

    jan.
     

Share This Page