Maybe one should ask themself, why do I need to debate religion and god. What purpose does this serve? Am I not a decent individual who can make his or her own decisions, and can I not rely on my own judgement? And can I not forgive myself if I make an honest mistake? And doesn't this still allow me to enter a lovingly welcome domain after death, if one exists? Anything more complicated than this just seems to serve to cause pain and opposition. What purpose does this serve? The only possible purpose seems to be to waste time and cause conflict, that allows control by any higher intelligence to take hold easier. How can this higher intelligence be good?, it can't be. If, in fact anyone or anything considers themself a god, that individual or thing has already proven themselves arrogant and not worthy of the title. The concept of god would seem to indicate to even someone or something that considers themself a god to have a god of their own to answer to. Who created them? This would go on to infinity and proves itself useless.
To Truestory, Infinity suggests an unknown. Why trust in an unknown for your moral stucture. Do you not have a mind of your own. Can you not make decisions based on your own adult judgement, or do you need a story teller to treat you like a baby. You are constantly being insulted by your own religion as if you don't have a mind of your own. Something or someone that hides in an unknown proves themself unworthy of your faith. How can you judge it's true intention, and what possible need could it serve in your life other than confusion. Doesn't humanity have its own basic moral structure, beyond that what need other than control can the concept of god offer.
To Truestory, Infinity suggests an unknown. Why trust in an unknown for your moral stucture. Do you not have a mind of your own. Can you not make decisions based on your own adult judgement, or do you need a story teller to treat you like a baby. You are constantly being insulted by your own religion as if you don't have a mind of your own. Something or someone that hides in an unknown proves themself unworthy of your faith. How can you judge it's true intention, and what possible need could it serve in your life other than confusion. Doesn't humanity have its own basic moral structure, beyond that what need other than control can the concept of god offer.
To Truestory, Infinity suggests an unknown. Why trust in an unknown for your moral stucture. Do you not have a mind of your own. Can you not make decisions based on your own adult judgement, or do you need a story teller to treat you like a baby. You are constantly being insulted by your own religion as if you don't have a mind of your own. Something or someone that hides in an unknown proves themself unworthy of your faith. How can you judge it's true intention, and what possible need could it serve in your life other than confusion. Doesn't humanity have its own basic moral structure, beyond that what need other than control can the concept of god offer.
Dear JJMMLL7, Perhaps to some, infinity suggests an unknown. However, there are those who understand infinity and God. I have a free will and yes, I can make judgements on my own. Please believe me, I am not one who is confused. I am not one who hides. My life is an open book. You might not agree with me, however, that does not mean that you are right and I am wrong or vice-versa. The moral structure offered by humanity, as I see it, is in a constant status of change and it is God that offered us a basic moral structure. It can be found in the ten commandments. Although you (or anyone for that matter), as a human being with free will, might choose to ignore the basic moral code offered by God in the ten commandments, do you see anything unreasonable or wrong with it? For example... In the very recent past, there was apparently an emotionally disturbed individual who felt that they had nowhere to turn... If that person (who just slaughtered the seven young adults in Fort Worth Texas) had heeded the warning "Thou shalt not kill", the moral fiber and emotional well-being of this society would have been much better off, in my humble opinion. Additionally, this disturbed individual would have had an avenue to travel (with God), rather than thinking there was no hope. Please believe me, I have learned from experience, there is ALWAYS hope and a future when you have a relationship with God, because God is infinite. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 16, 1999).]
I concur with truestory. The difference in viewpoint has much to do whether the scales have fallen from one`s eyes, or not. God is infinite. In every sense of the word. This concept is really quite simple when one has Faith. And if you knock on the door, It will assuredly open. The concept of God has much to offer. It is one of the oldest concepts known to man. When one has faith there is no confusion. The confusion lies with those who are still searching. And please tell me what basic moral structure humanity has? John Wayne Gacy made decisions based on his adult judgement. In Christ.
First of all, being an open book leaves youself open to anyone that decides to come in and take advantage, perhaps a figure who parades as a god and asks you to open youself to the unknown that is him so that you may be taken advantage of. The fact that you don't hide only proves you vulnerable to those who do. You can only protect youself by not being vulnerable (hiding something) whether you are good or bad. It is not a wrong decision to hide for the right intentions, to protect yourself from that which conspires. To ignore the bad by leaving yourself wide open will prove you controlled and leave the bad to rule. Does a bank leave it self open and trust in god to protect its holdings, then why do you do it with your life. Basic moral structure never includes killing or rape or any other obvious crime on itself, Things change and the voting public will accomodate those changes and there is no need to assume something else is needed. Society is a known, religion and god is an unknown that seeks to control and hide at the same time. You should ask yourself what does a god need you for. Why do you use insane people as examples, you will find no society that doesn't have insane people in it. They can't be used as examples because they don't fit in to the norm. If this is an attempt to justify any religion, it doesn't hold water. No matter what kind of moral structure is in place, these people will always show themselves as an exception.
First of all, being an open book leaves youself open to anyone that decides to come in and take advantage, perhaps a figure who parades as a god and asks you to open youself to the unknown that is him so that you may be taken advantage of. The fact that you don't hide only proves you vulnerable to those who do. You can only protect youself by not being vulnerable (hiding something) whether you are good or bad. It is not a wrong decision to hide for the right intentions, to protect yourself from that which conspires. To ignore the bad by leaving yourself wide open will prove you controlled and leave the bad to rule. Does a bank leave it self open and trust in god to protect its holdings, then why do you do it with your life. Basic moral structure never includes killing or rape or any other obvious crime on itself, Things change and the voting public will accomodate those changes and there is no need to assume something else is needed. Society is a known, religion and god is an unknown that seeks to control and hide at the same time. You should ask yourself what does a god need you for. Why do you use insane people as examples, you will find no society that doesn't have insane people in it. They can't be used as examples because they don't fit in to the norm. If this is an attempt to justify any religion, it doesn't hold water. No matter what kind of moral structure is in place, these people will always show themselves as an exception.
Whoa! JJMMLL7, Perhaps soome additional information will help. I grew up in an inner city (Bronx, NY) and am well-schooled in the art of self-protection. I have street sense, 45 years of life experience and many years of higher education in a number of disciplines. I am not one to be taken advantage of. I am a reasonable person who takes reasonable actions such as locking the doors to my home for safety. I would not consider this "hiding," since anyone in their right mind knows that people live in houses. My life is an open book, so to speak, in that I share my life experiences openly and freely with others. I do not have anything to hide in that respect. I am not aware that the shooter in Fort Worth was insane. What I learned was that he felt hopeless. Again, if this individual had a relationship with God, perhaps he would have seen some alternatives. I must disagree with your statement that basic moral structure "never" includes killing... or crimes against itself. History has shown repeatedly that such is not the case. Infanticide, genocide, suicide, hate crimes and thrill-killing are all on the rise. You and I both agree that the basic moral structure of humanity changes. However, it is not always for the better regardless of whether or not the voting public accomodates it. (Please keep in mind that there are some countries in this world where there is no "voting" public). Also, please keep in mind that the ten commandments do not change. If we, as humans, were to follow these basic moral guidelines, even without religion or the belief in God (let's say for the sake of argument that there is no God and that these ten "rules for living" came from man!) I still believe that this world would be a much better place. Peace! and... ------------------ Have a great day!
I'm not talking about hiding in a home, I'm talking about protecting your personal thoughts so they aren't used against you. I'm 34 and from Pittsburgh, and am educated, just in case you think I'm not a seasoned individual. How can you say someone isn't insane or "mentally unstable" ,what ever you call it, if they shoot innocent people. And saying what would have happened if he had a relationship with some religion or a god is like saying what if he belonged to a cult or some other group that kept him from doing bad. Just because you belong to a religion that teaches you not to commit certain acts does not meen that the religion it self has good overall intentions. If he can perform such an act, then there is something wrong with him that needs fixed. He could use a religion to gain control of his actions, but that doesn't make the used religion a good thing or a REAL thing just a used thing. And about people commiting crimes against themselves. When people are influenced by the bad, whether that's a religion or a person, that's when they start doing wrong. It is the stupidity of the people following the bad that causes the immoral acts. If people are stupid enough not to realize what they are doing is wrong, that does not meen that a religion is right, real or not put in place by a bad controlling intelligence. Also, just because people are being controlled by a bad government that doesn't allow voting doesn't meen anything at all about religion. It only proves that they need help by good people in power to give them their rights back. "Rules for living" are good, religion uses the good to suit its own purpose, that's what isn't good. In fact, people do make those rules without religion and they are in place now in our american society. What's good about people making rules is that they can be voted on and changed to suit a growing society. And it wouldn't matter how good or right any religion is if it is not real. I don't think it is real. And if it is used for good or bad doesn't make it real or set up by a good force.
JJMMLL7, I am speaking about a personal and spiritual relationship with God... I am not speaking about religion. Is it your assertion that, left to their own judgement, without spiritual guidance... any person with a free will who chooses to kill innocent people and themselves must be insane even if the voting public accomodates such acts?
Infinity implies an unknown? How do you figure? There is finite (one, two, three, a, b, c) and then there is infinite (that which never ends). The bible says that that which is unseen is eternal and that which is seen is temporary. Isn't that true? Doesn't 2 + 2 = 4 always? No matter how long the current universe exists, this will always be true. It's an unseen concept. It's the same with God's spirit that He gave to us which is unseen but gives you the spark of life that is apparent. The ego, the self-awareness, the soul, if you will. The most important thing you have to remember is we are not "good". Only the Father in Heaven is good. That's why Jesus bridged the gap between us and Him, because God cannot have any sin in Heaven. Jesus's blood washed us clean, and those who are free in Christ are free indeed! God gave us a choice in the beginning which man took for granted and was deceived by Satan. When they took a bite of the forbidden fruit, they let sin into the world when they gained knowledge of good and evil, which we all have. If there was no God, then there would be no good or evil, and NOTHING we did would matter, including murdering, false accusation, maliciousness, lies, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, gossip, stealing, atheism, etc., etc.. It wouldn't matter what you did because there would be no absolute evil or good. This is a funny concept to contemplate because there are absolutes in the universe. There is absolute darkness (where there is no light at all) and there is absolute light (where there is no darkness at all). The bible describes God as living in absolute light where there is no darkness in Him at all. There is absolute zero, absolute vodka, and absolute absolution. Dude, you KNOW in your heart that there is a God, that physical laws (which are unseen) are eternal. C'mon, obviously just being here implies that you are searching for an answer. Go in peace, and for goodness sake, read the dang Bible! Then you will find the answers you're looking for. It really isn't bad reading. Peace.
Dork, Ok, genius. Please explain to us dumb morons, why is it that something unseen must by necessity be eternal? Can you see <u>me</u>? Yet, at the moment my words are the ones governing your thoughts, I should hope. They are unseen in the same sense as your intellect. Yet, they all arise within the very physical brain (the sophistication of which, I'm sad to note, may vary.) More brilliant jewels of wisdom, as undeniable as 2+2=5. (Oops, 4, I guess...) Guess what: our behavior matters only because we live with other people. We have to get along and survive. Hence the existence of an <u>evolved</u> sense of good vs. evil. But don't just take my word for it -- consult some of the books that <u>modern</u> wise men write about the world. The only absolute is our existence. Everything else is either an empirical theory, or an idle semantic construct. ------------------ I am; therefore I think. [This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 20, 1999).]
Truestory- I take great exception to your viewpoint that some relationship with God, some adherence to the philosphies that God allegedly outlined, will solve all the problems of the world. As I'm sure has been oft-quoted on this board, Religion in general, and Christianity specifically, has provided the fuel for the fire of the majority of human conflicts since human history has been recorded. Wasn't it the Christians who sacked and pillaged Alexandria some 1600 years ago, murdering countless people and not-so-incidentally burning down the greatest center of learning in the Ancient World? (excuse me if I'm a bit bitter about the Library of Alexandria business, but I can't help wondering how much more advanced the world would be if mankind wasn't so asinine half the time...) You speak constantly about this great moral code that God has lain down for his followers, but here's a question for you. He prohibits serious crimes like murder and theft, etc, but why was there no law handed down from the burning bush about how to get along with your fellow man? Why has Christianity, since the time it gained the political power to have any influence over the world, felt the need to persecute and destroy other religions and cultures? For countless centuries, Christianity's goal has been the elimination of rival theist viewpoints, and the lengths to which they have gone to achieve this have been atrocious, to say the least. While hot iron-pokers and power-hungry priests may not be the fad of the current times, I would ask you why Christianity is perhaps the only extant religion to have missionaries. Violence and jihads of attrition may not be socially acceptable right now, but Christianity's missionaries are going along their merry little iconoclastic ways in foreign countries anyways. I had a friend who went to China as a missionary, and she was telling me about how they had to be very careful who they spoke to while they were there, since it was against the law to "spread the word" in China. Now, while I realize jailing missionaries may be a tad extreme on the part of the Chinese government, I also think that if they went to the trouble to actually OUTLAW missionaries, wouldn't you think that Christians should take the hint and leave them alone? -Mieraan ------------------ "Not all who wander are lost..." -J.R.R. Tolkien [This message has been edited by Mierdaan (edited October 17, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Mierdaan (edited October 17, 1999).]
Mierdaan, Your exception is understandable. You and I seem to agree in that the things which have been done by some organized religions such as the "Christianity" which you describe above is sometimes contrary to what we would expect of those espousing to follow Christ. I am not into the "organized religion" of Christianity for those very reasons. What I am talking about is a true personal relationship with God and a more-perfect adherence to the commandments (none of us are perfect). In my opinion, those who committed the anti-Christian acts which you describe above strayed, big time. As for the situation in China... Let me put it this way: I thank God everyday for having placed me and my family in a country where we are able to utter and pray freely (as long as we are not hurting others) without fear of persecution by the government. I don't know what is actually in the hearts of the missionaries there but, I do know that there is no government that could prevent me from spreading the Word of God.
Mierdaan-- I would like to excerpt a post to Truestory: * "while I realize jailing missionaries may be a tad extreme on the part of the Chinese government, I also think that if they went to the trouble to actually OUTLAW missionaries, wouldn't you think that Christians should take the hint and leave them alone?" Really ... when has the Christian missionary wing EVER taken the hint that they're not wanted? It worked before, I guess ... Peru, Mexico, the United States .... It is unfortunate that nothing shy of the bullet will clear the missionaries from a given task. thx, Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa-Are you condoning the killing of missionaries and/or Christians? How much does a bullet-proof vest go for these days...?
Mierdaan-How to treat others is in the 10 Commandments as well as throughout the Bible. If missionaries are outlawed, should freedom of speech be done away with in all matters also?
