Gimme the meaning of Eternal and Infinite

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Litlle phylosopher, Feb 26, 2002.

?

Did the universe start:

  1. By God?

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. By a chemical reaction?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. By big banging

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  4. it never started, it is infinite

    8 vote(s)
    61.5%
  1. Litlle phylosopher Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    Well, shit, i'm going crazy, thinking about terms as Eternal, Infinite,......
    Not healthy for a person to think about these things for too long.
    I think there can not be a thing as infinite, since everything has to begin somewhere. And if it doesnt begin or end, then i think we are in some sort of weird fokked up time loop

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    But when you say something begins, there must be something that starts it. And when you look at the universe, it had to begin one day, right? So what got the universe started? God??? I dont believe that....but maybe some sort of God is the best way to explain all of that sht, cuz i can never even grasp the meaning of Infinite and Eternal, IF THESE TERMS EXIST?!?!?
    Damn i'm talking crazy...
    I cant understand infinite, so, Universe must have started somewhere, since i excluded the possibility of eternal.
    What triggered that beginning? not God, cause he's no good either. So i'm guessing that i'm nutz.............
     
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  3. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,083
    my thoughts are for a "chemical" subatomic reaction tht caused the big bang

    welcome to sciforums Litlle phylosopher and don't get insane

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    although it is better to get insane from thinkingthan from not thinking
    Cheers!
     
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  5. Hoth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    383
    If you try to move back through a progression and find a point before which you can't find any other point in time, you'll see it's infinite. Same way in the future, you can only approach an end but never get there.
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    I just thought of something

    How can there be a big BANG in space

    there is no noise in space
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    There can never have been a beginning since something would have had to exist to start it.

    The universe must be infinite, i.e. had no beginning, and since "things" exist that must go somewhere then the universe can have no end.

    I use the term universe here to mean everything and that includes gods if they exist.

    We know a big bang occurred but there is no evidence for gods, so on that basis we could conclude that there was something before the big bang or there are many big bangs. Or in other words the big bang was not the start of the universe.

    Cris
     
  9. Hoth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    383
    Actually Cris, you don't have to conclude there was something before the big bang or multiple big bangs. After all we can't observe an actual big bang, only effects shortly after that would be consistent with one. It could be that the universe in the 4th dimension simply trends towards that at one end and towards emptiness at the other end. Actually it's a trend to emptiness at both ends, just getting smaller and thicker at one end and larger and thinner at the other.

    If there was something before our big bang then who knows how that larger universe started, but a trend towards a big bang is as good an idea as any.
     
  10. esp Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    908
    Litlle phylosopher ,

    Welcome to sciforums!


    Eternal: Any entity that lis bound only by the extreme limits of time can be described as eternal. Oft. used to mean for ever, but all of these terms have to fit inside time.

    Infinite: Without begining, without end. In any way, whether spatially, temporally, (not to be confused with eternity, which is only a couple of seconds by comparisson).

    This may be of interest: [finite fragment of infinity]
    http://www.sciforums.com/t6026/s/thread.html

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  11. To be pedantic, since time was created along with the big bang doesn't that mean that there was no "before"?

    Io
     
  12. supernova_smash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    31
    the bang

    asgaurd, you wondered how it could have made a bang? hehe. Well i don't know much about physics, but the bing bang theory states that our universe began as an infinitely small and infinitely dense object, and then imploded. If that is sorta close (which it prolly isn't

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    ), then wouldn't ALL the matter in the universe have been concentrated, thus allowing the transmission of sound waves? In fact, wouldn't have technically been of an infinite loudness consider the fact that it was the sound of an infite density of an infinite amount of matter at an infinite speed? I don't know?! Agh! I have no idea! But it might have been REALLY loud!
     
  13. Hoth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    383
    Sound is just another of the interpretations of movement that thinking creatures make, using data from their sense organs processed by the brain. If anyone had been standing outside the universe listening to the big bang, they wouldn't hear anything or even for that matter see anything until they'd already been blown to bits by the universe expanding over them.

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  14. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    IO,

    Yes if you assume that the big bang is the cause of the universe.

    I currently favor an alternative theory where there are potentially an infinite number of big bangs.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/guth_1.html

    Cris
     
  15. Litlle phylosopher Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    So, out of the poll i see that most people think the universe is infinite, but we will never be able to even grasp the idea of infinite, its something the human mind can NOT imagine. When i say infinite , i think about a line,that never ends, on neither side. Maybe we are not supposed to understand it... i dont know.
    I love thinking about it, but sometimes i get the idea that all this phylosophing isn't too healty for the mind...
    For the last few years i spent most of my time phylosophising with friends, but i think that can not be the only thing you do in your free time...one should live his life, not think about it too much, cause i do have some regrets about spending so much time on it.

    Tnx for the replies everyone, and please, feel free to keep on posting your ideas

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  16. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,014
    Oh dear Cris.... not again.

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    I am wondering: the structure of space.... is it strong enough to last an eternity? I thought that it wasn't and that after, say 10^50 years (a 1 followed by 50 times a 0) or so the fabric of space would degrade. I admit, I've only heard a rumour.
    Still stands the idea: wouldone not run into all sorts of logical inconsistencies if one would assume the universe to be infinately old?

    For me it's the BigBang. And that created all dimensions... so there is nothing before, or outside (exept for that weird pink hyper-cube).
     
  17. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Merlijn,

    LOL, yup here we go again.

    I haven’t heard anything like that. Can you find a reference?

    But which space are you talking about? If your rumor is confined to just the known universe [bubble], i.e. the [current] big bang, then the current theory is that all matter and energy will eventually dissipate into a uniform dead staleness. I’m not sure if that is what you mean by degradation though, sounds like you are suggesting something quite different.

    I think you’d have to provide some examples.

    But there are two issues of infinity here. (1) Infinite age, and (2) infinite size. So that might result in the universe being –

    1. Infinite in size, infinitely old, and is therefore stable.
    2. Infinite in size, has a finite duration, and is therefore unstable.
    3. Finite in size, infinitely old, and is therefore stable.
    4. Finite in size, has a finite duration, and is therefore unstable.

    But I have a problem with a finite duration since that implies there was a time when the universe did not exist, and that presents a problem of how did it start. For it to start there must have been something that existed before it to make it start. Either way you end up with something that came before something and that implies an infinite sequence, or IOW something with infinite age.

    So really only options 1 and 3 are possible.

    No I don’t accept a single big bang universe. All the evidence so far points to all the known matter expanding forever until we end up with a uniform staleness. And that’s fine and consistent with what one would expect from an explosion. But it doesn’t explain why the big bang started. If the universe is infinitely old then it seems likely that whatever caused this big bang can occur again, or is occurring many times, or has occurred an infinite number of times in the past.

    But what does it mean for the fabric of the universe to degrade, where does it go?

    Cris
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    call me stupid but WHAT is the wird pink hyper cube. I think that pole is unfair. It needs all of the above in it
     
  19. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,014
    Asguard, I am afraid not even I know what the wierd pink hypercube is, and I created it myself.

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  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Guys,

    I am surprised at you all. The wierd pink hypercube is so obvious. I cannot believe you are having problems with this.

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    Cris
     
  21. Hoth Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    383
    I'm forced to point out that the hypercube cannot be pink unless someone can see it, since "pink" describes an experience... and I doubt the validity of Cris' report of experiencing it.

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    Wouldn't Hawking say that it can be finite but unbounded, and by it being unbounded you're thus not able to consider the idea of something before the date it started? It seems related to relativity, in that the date of the beginning doesn't exist but is simply approached... you can get infinitely close to the theoretically defined origin point, but since you can always get closer you can never reach it. This leaves it fully possible that the universe could be called for example 14 billion years old but still not have an actual moment of origin. Doesn't this make a lot more sense, given relativity, than a universe that started an infinite number of years ago? (Unless you're trying to take an objective perspective, which would mean you shouldn't be using time anyway.) Or do I misunderstand Hawking?
     
  22. zaleia Registered Member

    Messages:
    11
    well, i think that the explaination of a begining to this universe was created in order for our finite minds to comprehend such an infinite concept. Like questions of why the hell the electrons, protons and neutrons spin around with quarks in between and all sorts of weird nutrinos flying out through every possible mass. Why the swinging of planets almost mirror this quantum world??It's all very weird and forigen to us. I believe in a god, because any other explination for all of the things i've witnessed, experienced and heard about this universe would be too coincidential, unprobable, and chaotic for me to take. If i believed in such chaos, i might just go mad thinking about this mess.. (well not quite crazy, but i'd be staring at weird things for long periods of time..)

    i believe that the universe exists for god to experience everything 'it' knows and is. So in a sense we are god experiencing. And evil exists because it is what god is not, and god knows what it is not, so we trug out and through this evil, learning and appreciating even more what god is = love. Evil can strengthen and increase all of the good stuff, if we let it. It can also do the opposite.. We are imperfect because we are ascending to god, and the closer we get the more pure it gets. etc....

    take care./!

    http://fading.org/lumina
     
  23. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    I didn't quite understand all that. Did u mean something like what Nakor is saying in the garden in Raymond E Feist's book "Rage of a Demon king"
     

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