Genocide

Discussion in 'History' started by Biggles, Jul 2, 2001.

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Could this ever happen in our community?

Poll closed Aug 1, 2001.
  1. Yes, given the right catalyst

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. No way.. not round here

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. Where's the escape hatch?

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. Biggles Custos morum Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    96
    We all have seen the atrocities carried out around the world to so many people... Uganda, Afganistan, the former Yugoslavia, WW2.... the list goes on...

    ...we can all imagine how evil the guilty must be. However, what baffles me, and causes general loss of faith in the human spirit, is how a whole population can be manipulated by a government or faction to carry out their dirty work. We constantly hear of how neighbours of a community, who have been good friends in the past, can suddenly cause grievious harm to each other after only a short period of time.

    Sorry to post such a terrible topic here, but the motivation for such actions has always baffled me.

    In our "civilized communities" we always assume that this would never happen in our back yards. And yet it happens again and again... I'm sure that todays 'Developed World' would be just as susceptable given the correct environment. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2001
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  3. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    The allure to be one of the group, to join the band wagon is a terrible fault of the human race. It is used, especially by advertising to bring the one into the group. Religion is another, right or wrong, which uses this to the hilt. The group mentality does not often question but rather follows, as much as a herd does. This fault in the genus makeup can be turned into terrible actions by those who would manupilate. It leads to those things mentioned above that in normal society would not be dreamed of as acceptable behavior. How can we do such is an amazing exclaimation that follows such if a mistake is appearent. With shame they bow their heads and hide in their hearts that which has been done.

    It makes you wonder if the race has grown any from it's prehistoric beginnings.
     
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  5. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,014
    still struggling

    I think 'we' (the species [please stop calling it 'race']) are still struggling to become enlightened.
    As long as the suppressed anger, the frustrated feelings of revenge and the (hopefully) latent love for destruction that resides in us is not woken by some situation. We maybe on the right track, because most people are more or less peaceful in their behaviour most of the times.

    I hope with all my heart that the track we're on does lead to a more ethically conscious society. Who knows, maybe we will eventually evolve to a better species. May genetic engineering be a solution here ?

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    Who knows our children will become Vulcans. I wonder, is suppression of the destructive tendencies the right way to overcome them?

    Live long and prosper

    ~ Merlijn
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2001
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  7. Biggles Custos morum Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    96
    Why is it so important to be one of the group. I generally agree with you, but in the face of atrocities why do so many do the unthinkable to other. Is this originating from our tribal ancestry?... and if so, how come logic & intelligence doesn't kick in?

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2001
  8. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,616
    Merlijn
    The context of "race" was meant as race of man, no particluar division. I would ask not to read into it what was not written. At the same time prehaps what you say is applicable as if it can be misread or misunderstood then I need to be succinct. So I will take that as constructive critizm and apply as such. Thanx.

    Biggles
    I think that it is part of our human makeup and to deny that it exists would make us as guilty as if we had commited the act against our fellows. To acknowledge and recognise that it is indeed part of our makeup allows us to be watchful of it and ever vigilante that such doesn't color our judgement and actions.
     
  9. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,014
    I understand what you mean by race, but the proper word that is species. But that is really not important.
    Important is that I do not seem to get what you mean exactly with
    please clarify.
    Merlijn
     
  10. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,616
    The meaning was to be more concise. More to the point or clearer in wording. If what I write is misunderstood then I have not been effective in communicating my idea(s).
     
  11. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,014
    Wet1,
    I am afraid you are right. Expressing in a clear manner is not always my greatest strength.

    I was more or less thinking out "loud": what is the best way to overcome the seduction/temptation of destruction. Apparently something that most if not all human beings bear in them is this lust for destruction -luckily normally only in a latent way.
    One thing history proofs, is that certain situations wake up that lust in some people.
    How do we overcome? Maybe by becoming Vulcan-like...
    Maybe by medically/genetically "mellowing out" our offspring....
    more Love or more Faith?
    who has any suggestions?

    Merlijn.
     
  12. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Hey Merlijn
    Isn't that what our 'offspring' were trying to do back in the '60's?
    And look where it got them!

    Just give every kid a half-dozen windows and a pile of rocks and let them get it out of their system while they're still kids.

    Just a thought.
     
  13. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,024
    I firmly belive that Genocide couldn't happen in our country, the US. First and for most it would require a reason for doing it, Hitler said that Germany had been stabbed in the back by the Jews during WWI and that they if exterminated everything would be fine. It is highly unlikely that this situation could arise in America, no matter what race was being persecuted.
    Second, it would be nearly impossible to do. Most likely genocide, if ever pursued would be by the President. If he even mentioned an idea of committing genocide he would be impeached instantly. The system of checks and balances would shoot down any attempt. By in large the American political situation has been rock steady and stable since the end of the civil war. Nothing short of a full on revolution would allow genocide to occur in the US. Thank god. Genocide or ethnic cleansing should be fought against with the most force possible, right now because of NATO efforts, Slobodon Milsoveic is sitting in the Hague awaiting trial. A former head of state has never been tried for war crimes before, we all should be proud of putting the butcher of the Balkans away.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,611
    Subtle poisons

    Planned Parenthood was founded by a eugenist. The idea was to convince black Americans to stop reproducing.

    The American Drug War has manifested its most effects along racial lines. It is so naked, in this case, that it is almost acceptable. What is perhaps most shocking about the New Jersey profiling scandal is not that law enforcement was caught--and later admitted to--profiling "suspects" according to race, but rather that officials did not destroy much of the evidence. In fact, very little appears to have gone to the shredder. The New Jersey evidence coveres ninety-one thousand pages. One of the most frightening possible explanations for the plethora of evidence is that it simply didn't occur to anyone to shred the documents: what was happening was simply that acceptable. These are not necessarily men of honor doing these wrongs; had they honor, we would not have any issues of race-based law enforcement to begin with.

    Lorillard tobbacco has been busted for an unusual ethical quandary: why did the sales focus of Newport (mentholated) cigarettes turn to black Americans after it was discovered and the data contained that mentholated cigarettes were more damaging to the smoker?

    When the American government chose to secretly infect men with syphilis, why did they choose black Americans specifically? What ever happened to the random sample? Or the societal cross-section?

    I'll even go so far as to assert that the countermovement against government-enforced equality programs is a sign both encouraging and worrying: We're getting over our racial sensitivities. If society appears to be taking it out on certain minority groups, it is because they are the most easily targeted. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with economy. Why the crack epidemic? Because the corner of LA that was most fertile to the economic temptations of a new black market happened to be populated by blacks. So would go the special-rights hounds. In this sense, to direct a conspiracy against your people and specifically exempt black people solely on the grounds that they've had enough would constitute an unfair racism. Exactly ... equality achieved via the method of viewing everything as equally worthless. Brilliant, eh?

    One of the points I've driven my rusty nails with is the argument that the lack of genocidal rage among Christians arises from the fact that human beings no longer find it acceptable to kill people for stupid reasons--revenge and money excepted. Essentially, I have asserted in Christian-issue debates that the lack of Inquisitions in the modern day comes from the fact that enough people have the hang of Thou shall not kill that mass murders, rapes, &c. are generally unacceptable. Again, there's always revenge and money. So it is with societal genocidal rage. While desperate tribes in Africa and elsewhere attempt to wipe each other from the map, we in the West look on, horrified--as if it's never happened before.

    Manifest Destiny? (Anyone? Anyone?)

    But murder has become unacceptable. Otherwise, the burning desire to scourge the earth of those we don't like seems to glow subtly within.

    During the worst years of the Crack Wars, the national average broke down that 1 in 3 black male youths would die before his 18th. Of the remaining, 1 in 3 would not serve time in prison before their 30th. And 1 in 3 black males aged 18 would not live to see their 30th. There is considerable evidence that the US government introduced crack to Los Angeles blacks; furthermore, the government has provided no alternative scenario to explain where the crack originated and how it got to LA. When we then stop and consider that 1986 saw the Federal Crack Standard which has victimized black Americans as a result of the aforementioned and widely-accused racial profiling scandals (it's even shaping up that way in Seattle). 2,389 out of 2,400 federal crack prosecutions in 1995 were of black people. 3 were white. This from the Department of Justice. Meanwhile, Health & Human Services reports that in 1995, an estimated 65% of the nation's crack users were white. I suppose the standard itself is important:

    * Five (5) grams of crack (approx. two copper US pennies, according to DRCNet) earns the convict a mandatory minimum 5-year prison term.

    * Powdered cocaine, by federal standard, warrants a 5-year mandatory minimum for the quantity of over a half-pound (500g).

    * Incidentally, I should mention that there is no difference at the molecular level between cocaine powder and crack cocaine.

    Did you know it required a federal court decision to force newspapers to stop printing the race of an arrested suspect on the crime page? Why is this? Because the newspapers had fallen into the habit of mentioning that a suspect was black, Hispanic, or Asian, but not when the suspect was white. (I shall make some effort to obtain the common case name of that decision.)

    There's an expression in this country: You don't know shit from shinola. How many people know where this comes from, and what shit means?

    Really ... I firmly agree that genocide can't happen again on this continent. Well, okay, maybe in Mexico. But that doesn't mean that the sentiment's not there. Too much is at stake: sure you'll get rid of the ______ (fill in the blank with your least-favorite ethnicity, gender, faith, or other), but everyone else in the world is going to be mighty pissed. Besides, it's bad for the economy.

    The US has too much to lose by outright killing off a segment of its society; that kind of thing only works in Asian backwaters, and amid economic desperation in Africa. On the other hand, we're doing all we can to stop the Jews and Muslims from killing each other off (well ... okay, there's a llot of Muslims, so that ain't happening, anyway), and it seems real important to get the Christians to stop killing the Christians in Ireland. Strangely, the necessity occurring where the black people are takes a seat to Western culture's affinity: you choose to have faith in God; at some point, you must, else it isn't faith. Why are we worrying about people killing each other over choices made instead of worrying about the starving children who didn't choose to be born into poverty during the afternoon breather amid an economically-inspired war? Who the hell is selling them bullets that isn't selling them food? (Okay, that's another issue entirely, but I'm leaving it in the post on purpose.) So, yeah ... the US has too much to lose: it's okay if Africans kill each other to extinction over who gets a next meal, but it does seem that something about, say, the US or, say, France setting out on a mission to destroy everything; and that's even considering the last time each tried.

    But to bring it back to the US, where I started this rambling rant ... I believe it won't happen merely because intelligent people aren't so few and far between here as, say, the third world, where your lucky thirty years on the planet are spent starving and learning to duck while you kill.

    All of the sentiments are there; all the weapons poised. The appearance of dignity, however, delicately holds back this post-Victorian social conscience. I'm waiting for it to turn post-American, and then we can stop all this silly manipulation in lieu of outright slaughter.

    The genocide cannot be; that does not mean the people will not try to find a way. I, personally, don't get it. Sure, it took me until I was 25 or 26 to shake off the last of my arbitrary judgemental standards. To the other it shouldn't have taken that long. For what purpose did the culture around me waste so much of its own and my time teaching arbitrary divisions and hatred?

    But I'm rambling now, so I'll just trust that y'all get the gist of it, or not.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  15. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

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    1,024
    That was a long reply

    All of that stuff on the drug war was interesting, but I don't think the drug war was created to treat minorities poorly, sadly that is what it is doing. Personally I don't think prohibition will ever solve anything, but I'm not for legalizing any of this stuff. (I'll start another thread on that). On the point of genocide you were right, the US has too much to lose from killing off a section of society. But I don't think that's why it won't happen, its mostly because we are a fairly peaceful society, that doesn't crave bloodlust.
    Let us think of what we may have lost in Hitler's holocaust: six million Jews were killed, and I think another three million "un-desirables". Who knows if there had been another Einstein, or another Jonas Saulk, or another Freud. Hitler robbed ultimately ten million people of their lives in the holocaust and another forty million in the war he started but he also robbed humanity of something: he robbed us of true innocence, and the possibility of more great minds, that no matter what are situation are in short supply and high in demand. We are much luckier to be living in a time of relative peace, I think our great-grandparents would be proud that we haven't made the mistakes of their generation.

    Yet.
     
  16. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Yikes ... Tiassa

    If I remember correctly, the study (which was funded by the government) failed to treat Black men who were already infected with syphilis to better understand the progress of the disease - and was conducted by Tuskege College!

    Or were you thinking of another study?
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,611
    I believe you are correct

    Of course, that's what I get for choosing to work without my resources. Thanx much, Chagur.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  18. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    The reason people do not get outraged and topple the government when genocide occurs is this:

    The group you (the powerbase) want to eliminate is first targeted. Then that group is potrayed as the evil, criminal, lowlife, disruptive, parasites, filthy and so on so forth.

    Then you start putting a few in jail at a time

    Then you shoot them a few at a time

    Then you kill them a group at a time. You get the idea.

    The local population gets used to this over a period of time and feels helpless to do anything. It is like if you drop a frog in a warm water and boil the water gradually, it will die rather than jump out.

    Look at what is happening in USA. A person goes to jail for 3 to 5 years holding some drug that he or she (more like a he) bought to get happy because he probably could not find a job or girl friend left him or whatever. Not only we denied his happy time (which is OK with me) but we have to shell out money to keep him in jail at the cost of $500,000 for 5 years (counting all the manpower and equipment amortization). For what? because we want to deny 30 minutes of happy time. But that is another topic.
     
  19. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,600
    <SPAN ID="bowser" STYLE="position: relative; left: -30px; top: 0px; font-family: comic sans ms, Verdana, Arial; font-size: 14pt; color: white; font-weight: bold; layer-background-color: red; background-color: red;">Genocide is a form of population control.</SPAN></font>
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2001
  20. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    ]<SPAN ID="bowser" STYLE="position: relative; left: 30px; top: 0px; font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 14pt; color: white; font-weight: bold; layer-background-color:blue; background-color: blue;">So is car accidents.</SPAN></font>
     
  21. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,600
    <SPAN ID="bowser" STYLE="position: relative; left: -30px; top: 30px; font-family: comic sans ms, Verdana, Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: yellow; font-weight: bold; layer-background-color: black; background-color: black;">Genocide is not an accident.</SPAN></font>
     
  22. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,600
    It seems to be a human drive, much like the sexual drive, to devour itself, as if genocide is a creature of nature.
     
  23. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    We are not "edu-m-cated". The technology is moving faster than the human psyche. As a human race, we survived for 100,000 years, have patient for say another 50. Things will change.

    It seems like yesterday, we in US had gun toting western shoot outs and salon society (In Texas, they still have the gun). We graduated the western violence to a better society. But we have a long way to go.

    Someone said "Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty"

    And thanks for bringing the awareness to the limelight. And you know what, with the advent of internet, any atrocities will not remain hidden. There are otherways to solve this problem. I am working on one.
     

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