Lori, I think MoonCat hit the nail on the head with this one - when they do that, they are most likely advertising in their own way. Beats the heck out of me - this is the first time I've heard of such a thing. What do they say about women who drive Ford F250's (yup - that's what I drive)? Some lesbian women may have more testosterone than their more feminine sisters, which might also partially explain their homosexuality. I don't think they are "trying to look like men" - but for those who do, I think their testosterone levels dictate that. I don't think lesbians are repulsed by men - where do you come up with this stuff? Lesbians are not sexually attracted to men - this does not necessarily equal repulsion. The same things can be said about gay men - they aren't necessarily trying to look like women (though some do). My brother, as I previously mentioned, is gay. He actually started growing breasts in his teens. My mother blames some hormones she took during her pregnancy to prevent miscarriage, but who knows? For whatever reasons, he definitely doesn't seem to have the same testosterone levels as straight men. I got in late on this one, so everyone else has pretty much beaten me to the punch here. I really do think you have some strong bisexual tendencies, Lori. I don't have a problem with that at all, except where you are projecting your own personal issues onto me. If I had said that I thought the Corvette was a beautiful car, would you ask me if I ever fantasize about jumping on the gear shift??? If I had said that I thought horses were beautiful animals, would you suggest I had bestial tendencies? Probably not, because those aren't likely to be your own personal issues. (Flash - thanks for sticking up for me here, buddy! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) Lori, you really do seem to be hung up on sexuality for some reason - your own, as well as others'. Why is this such a focal point in your life? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
And one more thing, then I promise I'll give it a rest. What about if it's just a certain attraction that one man or woman has to certain given traits. And these certain traits are usually deemed somehow "male" or "female" in nature right? BUT, both traits can be potentially DESIRED BY and/or EXHIBITED BY EITHER sex. I mean that IS the truth. There are women who exhibit feminine and masculine traits and men who exhibit feminine and masculine traits, and yea, there is a spectrum within each gender. Ok, now follow me here, if that indeed is true, doesn't it make it IMPOSSIBLE to say that it's IMPOSSIBLE for one to be entirely heterosexual or entirely homosexual???? I mean, for example, I've dated men before that seemed for a variety of reasons to fall on the feminine side of the male spectrum. I mean, it could be something as simple as the way he crosses his legs or mannerisms of that nature. Also his disposition. I remember feeling strange because this one guy was so sensitive and such a great listener, that I felt like I was sleeping with my girl-friend. That weirded me out. Why? Cause I guess I've always labeled myself a heterosexual, that's why. A man-eater to be more exact. But to tell you the truth, the men that come to mind here were really really nice guys. And they were also very very good in bed and not "gay" at all. As a matter of fact, and I think that this is extremely creepy, there are two such men that come to mind here, and don't you know that both of them, yes both of them, got engaged and married to the next girl that they dated after I dumped them for some sexy testosterone filled jerk? The only reason I didn't find them attractive was because of some stupid perception problem of my own. And here I am all surprised that I'm married to an insensitive jerk. It doesn't take a rocket scientist here...I could have tried a lot harder. Ok, I'm pooped. *I can almost hear the collective sigh of relief* Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Flash, Yup, apparently so. Name's Julie (nickname Jules), according to one source. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Ok then Searcher, if physical beauty doesn't make you "hop on the gear shift" then what does exactly???? All I'm saying is that it's kind of ridiculous to try to reduce it all down to someone's gender. And I in no way shape or form think that makes me a bisexual. Listen, all I have simply done in my mind is to try to put myself into a lesbians place. Which is a nice little exercise that you may all, homo and hetero alike may like to try sometime. It happens to foster open-mindedness, empathy, and enlightenment. As a matter of fact, it is the very same exercise that I presumptuously suggested that Flash do with Elvis. *BG* Ah, Elvis...but anyway, I simply do not think that the majority of people are open-minded enough for it to even occur for them to do it, and I also do not think, rather I know that the majority of people it does occur to for whatever reason are too close-minded to even attempt it. But I am telling you, that if you are to imagine the right mixed bag of perception and circumstance into a sexual fantasy, you can come up with all kinds of things, and a homosexual relationship is one of those things. I'm saying that there are quite a numerous amount and a wide variety of mixed bags of circumstance and perception that can lead a person to see being with a man or woman as a "right" or a "natural" thing to do. It's just all totally subjective. Everything that is except the sex organs and the babies. And please stop calling me a bisexual. I would never have sex with a woman because I think it's futile and counter-productive. I would never even think of giving up one single second of being with a man. Damn, I think I'd give my right arm about now but...it's all about a choice. ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
Lori, Although I admire physical beauty as much as the next person, whether the object of my admiration is a person, a car, an animal, a beautiful landscape or sunset - whatever, it takes more than physical beauty to arouse me sexually. To start with, I require a human male - and a masculine one at that. I prefer a big, strong man - it's not very appealing to me having my arms around a man I fear will break when I squeeze him! But physical attributes are much less important to me than personality characteristics. Although I like a big, strong man, gentleness and sensitivity are a must! Not to mention loving, caring, trusting, giving...oddly enough, the man I'm describing here is the same one I've been married to for about 20 years now! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Zappers, Thanks! And I must say, I'm intrigued! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Lori, Whoa..I'll respond better tomorrow.. I just read through all this stuff... ahhhhhh!!!!! Listen to yourself!!!!!! If this is all so true...about thinking it's futile and counter-productive...why are you wanting a guy now so bad??? To have a baby?????? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I..I'll reply tomorrow!
Lori, There is no need to talk about Adam and Eve; even today there exist certain indigenous tribes (in the tropics) that go naked as a matter of everyday life. And they don't get turned on by skin (because they are so used to it.) We, on the other hand, are socially conditioned to be aroused by nudity. And I think you do have a valid point about the flexibility (especially early in life) of the human psyche. However, such flexibility is not absolute. As a prime example, consider, once again, the failure in Russia of the Communists' attempts to program people from birth with certain ideals and tendencies so as to make all members of society 100% productive. Obviously, that didn't work out very well. And it is true that old Romans used to routinely engage in homosexual relationships; it's even true that old Greeks used to routinely and openly engage in paedophilia. So to a certain degree, social standards on sex are indeed subjective. However, they are not such when it comes to <u>personal</u> standards. The society may decide for you what's OK and what isn't, but that is not going to make much difference for your own preferences. All changing social norms do, is give more freedom to one segment of society over another. They can also coerce people into certain behaviors -- but that does not mean that such behaviors are what the people would prefer if they did not face any restrictions. You keep saying that it's hard for you to imagine how people could be "genetically programmed" for sexuality. Well, I disagree with this overemphasis on genetics. Actually, (and given much scientific evidence) I tend to believe that most personality traits are not set by genetics, but by the environment during early development (including prenatal development.) It is a common misconception to assume that genetics completely determines our form and function; our maturation environment is at least as involved as our genome in shaping who we are. You say it's hard for you to swallow that different people might have differing preferences for sexual orientation. But why is it any easier for you to accept that some people like math, say, while others hate it? Would you say that such aptitudes are also merely a matter of choice? If we were androids manufactured on an assembly line, then perhaps we would indeed all think alike. But of course, that is not so. We not only all look different, we also like different things and think differently. There really is no such thing as a universally applicable characterization of the human experience; human experience is in its very nature subjective. It is admirable of you to try and imagine yourself in a lesbian's shoes, and try to figure out what that is like. However, you will never succeed in that endeavor -- because no matter what you imagine, it will still be <u>you</u> and not somebody else. You are trying to project your own preferences and perceptions, your own values and conceptual frameworks, upon everyone else. While such an enterprise might be justifiable in the fields of math or science, it is futile (to say the least) when applied to psychology. Introspection and empathy are two very, fundamentally, distinct beasts -- and one can never substitute for the other. ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
Here's a theory I've had for a few years regarding homosexuality's place in a healthy society... I am beginning to wonder if homosexuality could be a symptom of an overcrowded region. It seems to me that homosexuality might have been designed to help ease population pressure - the more crowded any area gets, the harder it gets to survive there, right? Especially if you think in pre-industrial terms, small tribes and such. Too many babies begins to equal too little food, too much work, too many gatherers spending time giving birth and raising very young infants, and could very well put a huge strain on a small tribe. Now that we are in an "advanced" society and have machines and mass production, "modern" medicine etc. - our planet is becoming overcrowded very quickly. What if Mother Nature's way of fixing this problem is to flip the "homo" switch in our genes more frequently - more non-reproducing adults would possibly help ease the crowding...? Of course there are still lesbian couples that give birth to their own child(ren), but I think a lot of gay couples that have children adopt them. Of course we're not all slaves to our genetics, but I think we might be heavily influenced by such a genetic predisposition. We are all subject to millions of rules and laws and such that we don't even notice, every single day. The force of gravity, the laws of inertia, ageing, etc. I think that we are definitely influenced by our genes on a daily basis. Poor Lori is saddled with a "tootsie" body, I am saddled with my grandmother's thick ankles...(trade ya', Lori! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) These things are definitely there, and affect our personalities, to varying degrees. Because Lori is used to having men leer at her and therefore not hear a word she says, I'm sure she has developed a certain way of speaking that gets their attention - it might be a tone of voice, an inflection on certain sylables, perhaps she gestures with her hands to catch their eye...minute things that don't really change her core personality, but are directly influenced by her genes. I tend to view sexuality as the same kind of thing. For some, I do certainally believe it is a genetic predisposition. I really don't think my friend just convinced himself to be gay, I think he just was wired that way. Like I said, a fifteen year old boy has a certain body part that tends to...ahem, make itself noticed...when they become aroused in the slightest. I think that even if he had convinced himself mentally he was gay, but still had the latent cravings for a female, his "indicator" would have "popped up". (Wooo, what a sly euphamism, huh?) I don't know any man that has mental control over that part of their bodies, especially not 15 year olds!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dam, you might know I’d be busy as heck while a good debate has been going on. I’ve not been able to keep current and hope I don’t just repeat what has already been said. I’m not sure I buy that Lori is bisexual, or lesbian. I’ve read several times that many straight people have homosexual fantasies. I guess this theory implies that the degree and frequency would have to dictate where someone really fits in the scheme of things. I really don’t remember what the final analysis was right now. I sometimes think Lori says what she does in this forum for shock value, and this may be the case in some of the stuff she has posted about sexual subjects she has addressed in the past. And heaven knows she has a huge tendency to label and name call herself, which dumfounds me when she gets so upset when someone strikes back or simply makes the same kind of statements she does. Maybe this is one of those "do as I say, not as I do" situations. I’d like to respond to a statement someone made about gay men and women generally being obvious. I live in a neighborhood somewhat like the Village in NY, only on a small scale in the mid west. In fact I was attracted to this area since I couldn’t get to NY and I have always been attracted to the Bohemian and what I choose to call interesting type of people. At any rate prior to this area becoming a Yuppie slum area (by that I mean an area where up and coming snobs, and those trying to be up and coming live) many types of people lived, including gays. In fact the gays should be given credit for bringing this area back to a very nice area to live. At any rate it has been my observation from exposure and meeting many of the gay people who lived around here that most of the men and women were not the type you could simply point at and say ‘that one is gay’. Of course there are some of men and women who you could tell because of the way they presented themselves and others who simply made no secrete about it. But for the most part this was not the case. Like Lori and others have stated, I don’t like labels. For the most part It misrepresents the people labeled and many times cause great prejudice and physical harm to those who are labeled. I really wish to hell that Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberson could experience all the pain, hurt and physical violence they have cause many good people who were simply different. Prejudice is simply not acceptable on any level and I could care less how they are anybody interpret their faith and approach to people who are simply different. Boris ******** I like your posts. Your pretty well read. Wish I had your ability to keep facts in my head that you seem to able to do. I admire that since I wasn’t born with that trait and really wish I had it. I do good to take the same route to work from day to day. Mind you I’m not crying and saying I’m stupid since I know from IQ tests I’m just point from going above normal , but I have a couple of learning disabilities that make it difficult for me, and you might know I’m interested in the things that require strong concentration like religion, quantum physics, and psychology just to name a few. Wish I could have been happy reading the comic books, but no........... I had to make it difficult for myself. Searcher ************* I like your kind of Christianity. You don’t seem to have this ‘ I’m a Christian and know it all’ approach to dealing with people. Your form of Christianity is what my idea of what the Gospels were all about. I’m still on a stand off as to the Bible being the true and final word on the subject of God, but I have no problem with your approach and was moved by something you posted about what was in the Gospels. Sorry I don’t have time to go back and find it now, but I was moved by it. Lori ****** Sorry to pick on you as I did in a prior post, but you seem to have no compassion for people who are different or believe a different way. And you try to ripe the balls or tits off anybody in your way when you come. You do come back at times and say I'm sorry, but how many times are you going to believe this from someone who continuelly puts people down.in this forum. I’m no physiologist but I think you do have a problem with anger and interacting with people on even ground. I don’t care where your coming from or what you have to say, the way you come on is no way to treat and act toward people regardless of what your message is. . Anyway you have my support so long as you don’t try and make the other guy look like a ass. I don’t like that out anyone, even myself, and I realize I too have problems. My writing skills are somewhat limited compared to most of the people here and I will use vulgar language to make a point. This isn’t nice and I deserve soap in my mouth for doing so............. , and I bet you’d like to be the one to do it..................
I think true homosexuality is genetically predisposed. I also think that true sexual deviancy is genetic in nature. However, I also believe that pressure or releaseof by Society and religion can and does affect the frequency and volume of HS/SD one way or another. During certain periods, when moral constraints are lax, it is easier for a society to accept alternative forms of sexuality. When this happens, people being people, will venture into the wild side to check out the fruits so to speak, simply because they are accessible and therefore more acceptable. It doesn't mean that they are all true HS/SD's, in many cases it is probably just a passing phase that they grow out of. The thing is, that some people are just very highly sexed. Once people like this have shaken off their moral constraints, they can do virtually anything in the name of lust. Whether it's HTS, HS or SD it doesn't matter. I think most people would be far more sexually adventurous and deviant if there was absolutely no stigma attached to it by family and society. ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Regarding a quote of Tab's (though not directly aimed as such): * "During certain periods, when moral constraints are lax, it is easier for a society to accept alternative forms of sexuality. When this happens, people being people, will venture into the wild side to check out the fruits so to speak, simply because they are accessible and therefore more acceptable. It doesn't mean that they are all true HS/SD's, in many cases it is probably just a passing phase that they grow out of." I can't speak for lax morals, per se, but I did want to recount a story as it was told to me: * It seems to me that the first thing I heard about Basic Instinct was the marvellous up-close-and-personal we get with Sharon Stone's vagina. Whatever storms this brought about, the resulting fallout might have had some unexpected consequences. Parents, alarmed at sexuality, and then at bisexuality, apparently freaked out in some places. A woman I dated told me that at her rural-Oregon high school, bisexuality became popular among the girls after B.I. was released. This, I'm told, was not at some fantastic suggestion of the film, as several of my girlfriend's friends had not seen the film when they participated in an alleged bisexual orgy. As two people associated with that story remember it, it was more the idea of the perceived deviance ... it had more to do with challenging parental mores than it did with true sexual expression or wanting to be like Sharon. In fact, its only association I see to true sexual expression is that I do know three people who became comfortable with their sexuality after having a big media flare-up removed from their own person. Of course, I'm not a potentially bisexual woman, so I don't have any sense of empathy toward Sharon Stone's character. But that's only one story, and alas, I missed the occasion myself. But I'm wondering what would have happened had any of the six girls alleged to have taken part in this wild night had actually seen the film. Of course, they all went to see the film the next day. Or so the story goes. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx, Tiassa ------------------ Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
OT: Zappers, You wouldn't believe it, but I have a very similar problem to yours. I retain things extremely well over the short term, but all that knowledge simply doesn't stay for the long term. So, I've encountered my own share of people who have the long-term memory I wish I had. Hmmm... I guess we are all in a way just a continuum of wannabes! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Zappers, Thank you for the sweet compliment, but I have to set the record straight here - although I do often quote the bible on this board, I am not a Christian at all. I apologize if I misrepresented myself in any way - that certainly wasn't my intention. I do know what you mean, though - I don't mind Christians who don't act obnoxious about their religion. I seldom witness what I consider "true Christianity", but there is a certain "something" about those who are "true Christians". The few I know who do fall into that category (at least in my book) are truly sweet people, with a kind of inner glow that warms the souls of those who meet them. As I said, it's a rare and lovely thing to behold. Don't worry about your "learning disability", Zappers - you seem to do just fine! I have a reading disability myself (I read at about the speed of your average 3rd grader Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ), and it can be very frustrating when there are so many things I want to read and so little time to do it! As for that memory thing, I had a great one up until about 10 or 12 years ago (at least I think I did - I can't really remember, now! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) It used to be that I never had to write down a phone number - I could call it up at will. Now I have to practically write down my own phone number if I hope to remember it! The older I get, the worse my memory becomes, too. At one point, I was so concerned about my memory loss that I went to the doctor and they did an MRI and an EEG. Of course, they didn't find a thing! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Here's a little question, I think I already know how most of you will answer... What defines being a homosexual? Is it a single homosexual experience? Is it a certain number of homosexual experiences? Is it if you consider yourself homosexual, you are? If you constantly wish and fantasize about homosexual sex, but stay celibate, are you a homosexual? What about if you're married heterosexually but feel strongly you're homosexual, but don't do anything about it? Or should we just forget all the damn labels, and just let people be people? I wish we could, but frankly, I don't think we will ever manage to accomplish that. Curious to see what you all think. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
MoonCat, Personally, I think that those are some of the most rational and honest questions that I've seen asked here. Thanks, I needed that. Honestly, it is obvious that many people on this board are in denial in a big way. And also, I think that some of that is certainly attributable to lack of "experience", whether it be physical or mental. And ultimately, I think that is a GOOD thing. The reason I say that is that I really think that a lot of the baggage that people hang on sex is destructive to us all in a big way. Ultimately, if sex is going to be pure in intent, then it all has to start in your mind. I don't know though, reality and the view out my window, and history, and just simply what I know about myself says to me that it's NOT normal to have a purity of intent or thought regarding sex for humans in general. And I happen to also KNOW from experience, and so does everyone else, that the purer the intent, the love, the emotion, the better the sex right? So we're right back at the ideal. Yes Boris, "utopian sex". What is it? Well I can tell you this, it is NOT the afore mentioned wise-crack about a massive orgy. You're right, I do say some things for shock value. But I DON'T LIE. It's sex within the full scope of truth of what sex is SUPPOSED to mean and be and ALL THE GIVEN consequences of it, whether that be physical, emotional, or a child. So when I think of what some have referred to, and I have referred to as sexual deviancy, I happen to think that all sex in one way or another is usually "deviant" in some way. It's not pure. We're not pure. We can try real hard. That, I think, regarding everything in life, is the very meaning of life. And I honestly believe that the harder we try, if we are trying for the right reasons, we will ultimately benefit from it, even if at weak moments, tempting moments...the taste of sin is sweet is it not?...an easy way "out" is looking daaaaaaaamn good. Do you people hear me? Can I get an amen on that one? Maybe it's because I seem to have the libido of an eighteen year old boy. And maybe that even has something to do with the way other's see me, and hence the way I've had a tendency to see myself. Maybe it's what I've allowed myself to be exposed to in my mind or in my life. But it seems to me that a persons perceptions regarding sex, that is what it REALLY means to them when it all comes down to it, is more than anything, what defines their actual sexuality. ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 09, 2000).]
Searcher, thought you might be interested to know that there are drugs available now for memory loss. In Cyprus there are two brands available over the counter, one is called...er Memor'X' that's right and the other one (which aids blood circulation in the brain and is probably more suited to you) is called mmm, Memor'E'. My wife's been taking Memor E for about two weeks now but she still can't remember how often I want sex! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tab, That was extremely funny. LMAO! ------------------ "Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!" I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.
